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Managing Dissenting Opinions to Make Better Decisions with Dr. Tom Tonkin, CEO of The Conservatory Group
On this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, Jenn sat down with Dr. Tom Tonkin. Dr. Tonkin considers himself a recovering executive and an aspiring Renaissance man, as an executive in the professional services and software sales arena. Dr. Tonkin has over 30 years of business and technology experience. He is currently serving as the CEO of The Conservatory Group and is the co-founder and Dean of Students at The Sales Conservatory. Join us as Dr. Tonkin and Jenn talk about managing dissenting opinions and making data-informed decisions.
Meet Dr. Tom Tonkin, Recovering Executive & Aspiring Renaissance Man
Jenn DeWall:
Hi, everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and I am here with Tom Tonkin. We are so excited to be talking about how you can make dissenting opinions so manageable, something maybe easier, something more approachable. So then, you can make more data-informed decisions. I know that they heard a little bit about you on our opening bumper, but Tom, could you go ahead and just introduce yourself to our Crestcom audience? We are so happy to have you on the show today,
Dr. Tom Tonkin:
Jenn, I really appreciate you taking time here on a snowy day here in Colorado, but we actually both live here. It’s a lot of fun. I, again, my tagline has always been that I am a recovering executive. I have been in what I would call the standard corporate world for probably over 30 years. But as of late, I’ve obviously launched into my own set of businesses from a workplace perspective, and I am learning sales and DEI specialist. So some things that you can go out Google and look for me. And but I, I am like a management consultant within those areas. I have what I would believe is strong academic background. I’ve done a lot of research in these areas as well. And you know, part of the reason is, is that I wanna take what I’ve learned, not only in my professional experience, as well as my academic experience and sort of giving back to the corporate world. I think that’s probably the best way to sum it up as we are here today.
Jenn DeWall:
Yeah. I’ve well, I, I have the question that I know we talked about this because I love how you identify as a recovering executive. How did you come to maybe that description or identifier of yourself?
Dr. Tom Tonkin:
I think anybody that has been an executive for ten years is probably chuckling right now. Because they probably said, you know, Tom, good tagline, and I’m gonna take it as well. And you should, you know, if you go and work in large organizations where there’s a lot of internal flux, reorganizations, redirection of resources, and vision, it takes a toll on you just to do the job that you have been hired to do. You know, let alone just, you know, the nine to five thing that people expect. And it got to be a point where it’s like when I left corporate America, I thought I needed a break. I need to go to rehab or something.
Jenn DeWall:
Is there an Executive rehab? There should be!
Dr. Tom Tonkin:
There should be! And, and you know, sort of get my mind gear as to what I actually think my value is without a lot of the noise that comes from these large companies. And by the way, I’m not being disparaging in that because I think large-scaled organizations, that’s just, that’s just the game. That’s, that’s, what’s required to move these behemoth organizations forward. However, somebody who, you know, make a lot of decisions, I’m sure you’ve had people here talking about, you know, the idea of decision fatigue. It gets to be a point where that, that rehab really helps when you’re able to step out and say, look, let me not make any decisions for the next few days. And, and just think about what it is that I do for a living and how I can help other people.
Jenn DeWall:
Oh gosh. I wonder I, what impact that would have if execs, because I know that likely, and, and I’m not trying to in any way, say that other people’s schedules, workloads are not high, but you know, again, you know, executive leadership, it can be a lonely place and yet, you’re highly visible. So there are a lot of different expectations. And so I think, yeah, it’s only natural that decision fatigue takes place. And I don’t think our listeners got in any way that you were just disparaging that. I think we recognize that it’s a challenging role. There’s a lot of weight on your shoulders. And I don’t know. I think there are a lot of executive leaders that are likely feeling maybe even alone, as sometimes I see in leadership or the classes that I teach. They don’t even have of same opportunities to rely on their peers, to ask someone for help, to solve problems. I feel like sometimes that really lies within to figure everything out. And that’s just challenging in and of itself. Like you don’t have that support system that you might need, and maybe they do within their other executive team, but it may not be something that’s as relevant to the role and their day-to-day. How did, yeah. What’s your comment on that? Because I imagine you struggled with that, maybe feeling a little isolated at the top. Or that extra pressure that you put on yourself because you have the title, you have that visibility.
Ascending to Leadership Positions
Dr. Tom Tonkin:
I will say this that probably, well, no, not probably for certain, the hardest job that I ever had as I ascended into an executive role was that line manager job, right? You went from an individual contributor sort of, you know, you’re the person that has the set of tasks and processes you have to execute. And then you become really good at that. And then someone says because you’re good at that. I’m gonna make you a manager of those people, which if you think about it, it’s a non sequitur, right. It’s like that doesn’t make any sense because I would guess about 50% of the behaviors that you need to be, that manager of those people are completely different than what you just did. Right? I am. And again, I, you know, I’m a widget maker, right? I’m gonna make lots and lots of widgets.
I’m the best widget maker there is. And so somebody comes along and says, Tom, you’re such a good widget-maker that you now need to manage other widget makers. And I think everybody can recognize that those are different, and there’s no like onboarding of that job. If you’re internal and someone gives you a promotion, no one says, Hey, let’s put you through onboarding. Let’s put you into new hire training. Which by the way, I’m suggesting that people do, because, in essence, that is a new job. Now I would think that anything above that it can become better and you become better at it, but that is such a crucial linchpin of a position that I think that your experience in that position dictates what the rest of your ascension will look like, whether it be difficult or a little easier.
Jenn DeWall:
Gosh, I think, think that brings up really. There are two things that come to mind as you’re sharing that because you know that our first leadership roles, those ones where we are starting to step up, can be, again, similar to that executive. It can be really isolating. You might, you know, experience a little bit of the imposter syndrome, and many companies and organizations don’t necessarily give you that leadership training. They kind of think that, well, you figured it out for that widget-maker role. And so you can probably figure this one out. And I think so there’s that piece of feeling like you’re maybe not set up for success, but then you also have, and just again, continuing with your story, you also have the widget makers that are fantastic widget makers, and they’re so great. And they have no desire to be a people leader. Exactly. Yet, if you want them to move up, they have to. And I think that’s so interesting, and I don’t have a solution for what organizations could do, but I do wish more organizations could promote people without making them people, leaders and allowing them to shine with the strengths and skills that they have because they may not cross over. And we don’t want to accidentally or inadvertently create awful experiences for the employees just by making that one wrong leadership choice.
Dr. Tom Tonkin:
Yeah. I, you know, I agree with you because I, I will tell you this, that maybe we don’t have the hardcore definition of a solution, but I will tell you this. We can make it a heck of a lot better than it is today. I’ll give you an example. I worked within the company that for you to get a promotion, a prerequisite was that you manage people. So you’re kind of stuck with, well, that’s the, how do you say that that’s my reward that I’m gonna get. And so, therefore, you know, going up is good. You know, all of them, I would think myths are in their head. That ascension is really what everyone should be doing. And I don’t necessarily believe that. I believe that it’s, it’s the associated value that you bring to the corporation and maybe making the best widgets your company has ever seen is really where you should be. And there’s a whole bunch of ways to reward you outside of just promoting you.
Managing Dissenting Opinions—Different Doesn’t Mean They’re Wrong
Jenn DeWall:
Yes, yes, yes. I love this. We’re sharing our opinions, which I think is a place to start, you know, going into our podcast topic, which is how we can manage those dissenting opinions and make more data-informed decisions. You know, we’re talking about dissenting opinions and I guess from your definition, would you just mean the opinions where we may not all be in agreement? We might be challenging theories. We might be challenging your observation or opinion itself. What would you say that problem might look like in organizations?
Dr. Tom Tonkin:
Well, I define dissenting opinions as opinions that are different. It’s that simple. And I, all of with executives with a quote that I’m not necessarily who said it I would love to have said it but I use it, which basically says differently isn’t always better, but better is always different. Different isn’t always better, but better is always different. So what do you want? You, you want better? I’m assuming, don’t we all? Well, by definition, it is different. And yet I go to board meetings look across and, and it becomes this battle of homogenous– I can’t even say it– homogenizing ideas, like where can we get to the most is neutral non-boat rocking, right idea. And because we can all get along, but then it’s like, have we really looked around and below and above and outside whether or not that, that particular conclusion, right. It brings us to a better place.
And so when I say dissenting opinions, I’m not sitting here, you know, rolling up your sleeves. You’re gonna go, you know, fist to fist with somebody. But I am saying that sometimes people look at something that’s different and connected to it is wrong. We’ve never done it like that before, or I’ve never heard of it like that. Therefore it must be wrong or something we shouldn’t, excuse me. It shouldn’t do. And I think some of the best ideas have come from somebody saying, well, you know, why not? Why can’t we do these things? Why can’t we change ourselves a little bit? Why can’t I do something that’s different? I remember being in a room with a, I’ll leave the names out, but it was a large CPG company. And I was with the CEO and CIO. And I had the CIO in the room, and I was up on the whiteboard trying to explain something. And the entire time he was shaking, he said, no, that’ll never happen. That’ll never happen. No, no. Let you know, lemme give you 18 ways why this can’t happen. And I finally kind of flipped it and said to him, I realize it can’t happen, but what if it could happen. That’s all I said; there’s like this pause in the room. A lot of my peers are looking at me, like, I can’t believe he actually said that.
Jenn DeWall:
We’re supposed to think that it can’t. We’re supposed to think it can’t.
Dr. Tom Tonkin:
And then, and then he, and then he goes, I’ll show you. And he gets up on the whiteboard for the next 20 minutes and outlines it’s exactly how this thing could happen. And the CEO looks over and goes, why don’t we just do it like that? And it just opened up this whole new conversation. And, you know, we can dive in the whole discussion around limiting beliefs and, and, and what we bring from that because I think the scenting opinion and limiting beliefs kind of go hand in hand. The reason people dissent is because they have some limiting belief or some idea that that dissenting opinion is wrong or different or unworkable, you know, pick your poison, whatever the word you’re using. And I think if we’re able to govern our limiting beliefs, we might be able to have an opportunity to manage those descending opinions.
Jenn DeWall:
Okay. I love that. You’re talking about, you know, limiting beliefs as it relates to your team, how you filter that information, how you allow other people to bring diverse perspectives into the room or conversation. You know, what’s interesting is I think I, you know, we’ve done a few different podcast episodes and never once have I heard anyone talk about limiting beliefs as it relates to the opinions of others at work. And I think that that’s such a special correlation because yeah. What I wrote down there, even with your perspective of like a lot of people do think, oh, well, if I’m different, then I might not be getting it right. Or I might be wrong. And so, I don’t want to raise my hand or volunteer my idea just because different means wrong. And I think you deduced it down to a rule that is a limited belief. I love that, Tom! I think that’s so powerful. So just PSA or public service announcement to anyone listening right now. We’re gonna start with that one just because it’s different does not necessarily directly equal wrong. Oh my gosh. Thank you for saying that, Tom. I just appreciate that so much. So let’s dive into it. So, where do leaders get this process wrong? I know we talked a little bit about limiting beliefs, and we might go more into it, but where do leaders get this process of managing dissenting opinions wrong?
Dr. Tom Tonkin:
Well, I think what happens is, and, and I think it’s baked into corporate hierarchical culture in the sense that when, when, when I am trying to ascend, right, let’s go back, let’s rewind five minutes ago, whatever. Or we’re talking about how ascending into a, into a, a position is good. And so here I am, I’m trying to ascend. And the way I do that is I try to be noticed. I try to, you know, I won’t take credit for everything I possibly can. I’m not suggesting to do anything malicious, but I say, you’re, you’re trying to gain the visibility of your boss to say, you know Jenn is somebody special, right. Then we should take a look at her because I, I kind of see her all the time or she’s, she’s volunteering for really difficult things, has an interesting, a set of opinions.
And then you get that right. Then you get promoted. So what do you do as a leader? What, what’s your natural inclination, your natural inclination, as is everybody below you now? Okay. Now, everybody just chill. Because I am now the leader, nobody better be rocking the boat. Nobody changes anything. Nobody goes against my dissenting opinion because I’ve got this. Because I’m gonna go to my next level. I’m gonna shake it up here, but I’m gonna lock it down below. And that’s how I’m gonna move up because I want to have to compete for, you know, minutes, if you will, with, with those that might be able to provide me that visibility that I’m looking for. And again, none of this is malicious. It sounds malicious. And maybe I’m describing it that way, but it’s not in the sense that it is baked into corporate culture. That’s what you need to do as a leader.
The Challenges of Decision-Making in Middle Management
Dr. Tom Tonkin:
I have a great book for everybody. If everybody’s interested, it’s called Leadership BS by a gentleman of Jeffrey Pfeffer. And if you go to Amazon, he’s, he’s a great author. I love him, but I think the title says it where we talk about, like, for example, this idea of humility, right? Oh, you know, if you read the leadership literature, right. Be humble, you know, help others and all this other stuff, I gotta tell you in middle management, that’s not how it works in middle management. It’s, you know, I’m, you know, I am the most humble person in the whole world, right—the dichotomy of trying to stand out because that is how you ascend into an organization. And so there’s, there’s an interesting, fine line between, you know, being a go-getter and all that. And really do, you know, have a helping hand and all. I’m not suggesting that everybody’s like that, but it’s very difficult in those middle ranks.
Jenn DeWall:
Sure. Well, especially depending on that, that drive, Hey, this is, you know, this is how you, you should show up as a leader here. This is what we want to see, less humility. Right? We don’t care. We want to see your ego. Tell people to do this. I think there are a lot of differences depending on the culture that you’re in. And there are a few different things that even came to mind even thinking about humility because I think, you know, when you talked about promotions, I think, and you talked about this earlier, maybe I’m going back, but even thinking that if you get a promotion yeah. Let’s go through onboarding again. And here’s the thing that I would add to that piece of, well, if we’re gonna do onboarding again, let’s talk about how this team, this small microculture or subculture within the organization, these are the norms, expectations that you want to know, because I think that that’s often a misstep too, is that we don’t get people ready for that new avenue.
And I guess I think about this normal place of pain when I received a promotion at, they done so well, working with all these people, they valued dissenting opinions in that culture. They absolutely did. I could ask questions. I kind of try to move the needle. I could ask questions just to be curious. It wasn’t necessarily pushing back, but when I moved into that other department, the other role within this large corporation, well then, you know, to take that book, what got you here is not necessarily going to get you there. I found out my approach to even offering opinions was not respected or appreciated and actually was seen as me trying to undermine strategy. Whereas in the past area, it was actually me trying to understand how the strategy worked, not undermine the strategy. Exactly. I know that was a little bit of a kind of a tangent on that one that what came to mind in terms of that onboarding bridge for me, and just that challenge. So you talk about there are two types of change within a team, within an organization. Let’s talk a little bit more about that type of change that can exist.
Change Management— Top-Down or Bottom-Up?
Dr. Tom Tonkin:
So as anybody who’s might have listened to me before, and maybe your, your listeners are new to me, I always tend to sort of default on sort of a basic theory to give me a model to work off of. And there’s a wonderful book called Cracking the Code of Change by two gentlemen, Nohria and Beer, and what they have done over a 40 year period is to measure all the different changes in project organizational, just throw ’em all a big bucket. And basically, it came to the conclusion that there are only two kinds of changes. There’s an economic change or organizational capability change, economic changes. I, you know, we, we need to be profitable. We need to reduce, you know, cost, excuse me, those kinds of things. Then there’s another change which is capability. We need to make new things. We need to make them better. We need to be more entrepreneurial. And what’s interesting about those two changes is what they came up with was if you go into the research or six dimensions of how you qualify those two changes and the economic changes, kinda a top-down command and control approach, right? Top-down, we all agree on what it is. We’re just gonna tell everybody what to do. And that’s great. Organizational capability, though, is the other way around, just gonna be from the bottom up where you have people in the line management or the people that are in the field having to do those trading that change and pushing that grass movement up. Now, that’s all fine and dandy, but here’s the problem. The problem is, is when you take that first one, that what’s called theory E the economic piece model, and you put it over top of the organizational capability means you’re driving organizational capability from the top down.
That’s really why you have these. These change efforts fail. If you go to the number, the number, anybody who listens to this knows this 70% of all first-time change efforts fail. And that’s one of the biggest failures is somebody says, I’m the boss. And you all need to be better at something. To transform, you know, go be somebody innovative and tell me when you’re done. Yes, I’m being a bit facetious, but try to make the point that that doesn’t necessarily work. And so what I always point to is, what kind of leader are you and kind of know, you know, stick to your knitting, right? Know which leader are you a top-down leader? Because by the way, I’m not suggesting that top-down’s bad. I’m, I’m just saying that’s often misused when you’re trying to generate new or is capability, but you have a top-down those leaders that have that perspective, my advice to you would be, how can you motivate and incent and inspire those at the lower levels to take that leap, to create the organizational capability change that you desire that is where you see the successful companies and leaders.
Bridging the Gap Between Different Opinions
Jenn DeWall:
How do you bridge the gap, though? Because I’m gonna speak as if, you know, I was just in this role where I might be that entry-level employee, maybe I’m even a frontline leader. And I can see the impact of this strategy, in my opinion, is that this may not have been the most L thought out strategy. We may not have the right resources, the right amount of time, whatever that answer might be. How do you bridge that gap between those differing opinions or, like that, will exist may be between the top-down and that bottom-up? How do you what’s that point of, I guess, marriage, where they can see each other? How do you do that? Because I know even from the other perspective, especially if it comes top-down, you may not ever feel comfortable vocalizing or even sharing that. So how do you bridge that gap when there maybe those differences in opinion?
Dr. Tom Tonkin:
Well, there you have it, I mean, that’s, isn’t this, the theme of our podcast today, right. Is managing those dissenting opinions. That’s another opportunity. I think there are a couple of ways of doing it. Obviously, there has to be fluid communication up to and down the hierarchy. One of the other things that I’ll leave your listeners with is you see these companies go through internal reorganizations, and usually, those internal reorganizations are very vertically oriented people report to. So, and so we’re gonna move this division to that side, very sort of vertically oriented. And yet there’s plenty of evidence that organizational changes at a vertical level really don’t impact the business. That much, what really impacts the business is that horizontal connection. My ability to work with my cross-functional peer at every level, whether I’m an individual contributor all the way to an executive.
What can I sort of quote, unquote, reach over the aisle, as they would say in politics and be able to work together. That’s how it moves. And so as a leader, again, now I’m putting these pieces together for you to understand the kind of change that you’re going through economic versus organizational capability, which was, where does the E what the Genesis of each one of those changes is? Number one, number two, as a leader, ensure that your cross-functional communications your horizontal communications are alive and well. And people aren’t stopped from working together because that’s how you’re going to move forward. And it, lastly, of course, is having that fluid communication to sit there and say, you know, like what’s going on in the field, see, this is the problem. And again, it’s inherent in a, in a hierarchy, because think about this.
Are Making Decisions From the Balcony? Or the Dance Floor?
Dr. Tom Tonkin:
It’s just very physically easy to see if I’m here. And this is my, this is the field, and I move up, and I move up, and I move up. I’m getting further and further away from the action, right? I don’t see. And so one would say, well, that’s good. You’re at the, you know, the balcony if you will. And you can see down at the dance floor, but you become disassociated to the dance floor. You’re you don’t hear the people, you, you don’t feel the sweat, you don’t. And so there’s, there’s this idea that you have this third-person view of the external business, and you can’t make those changes, or at least you don’t understand what changes need to be made. And so you need to be at the dance floor level. And of course, as executives, sometimes, you know, you can’t because you’re, you know, running a business or whatever, but down on the floor, the people know you are sweating, they’re dancing. They know to win slow dance. They know when a fast dance, they know who’s a better dancer. You know, I can use all the dance analogies here, but you could see, you could see that the further up you go, you’re just very disassociated. So how can you create an associated view of what’s going on in the field?
Jenn DeWall:
Oh my gosh. I think that if more organizations, teams, leaders could answer that question. I think people would feel so much more supported, so much more, I guess, engaged. And just knowing that their teams see them, understands those constraints. They understand what song they’re listening to. I love that example of the metaphor. What song are they dancing to? How fast are they dancing? How slow, you know, again, we can think that view of the balcony! Are you disassociated?
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You Can’t Just Ignore Dissenting Opinions
Jenn DeWall:
I wanna move into this because I know we didn’t touch on this yet, but your organization, The Conservatory Group that you founded. And I know we didn’t talk about your past as a musician as, or excuse me, a career as a musician. And I know that there is a lot of experience that brings, or that you bring from that to the conversation that we’re having right now. And one is also in the form of feedback. Could you tell us a little bit about how we can manage dissenting opinions and how we can give feedback in a way? Hey, maybe we can’t, you know, do this. You have a different idea. It doesn’t mean to ignore it doesn’t mean to not address it, but if you’re going to address it, how do you address that if you’re not gonna go forward? How do you do that?
Dr. Tom Tonkin:
Well, I give feedback? Yeah, well, I’m gonna, I’m gonna paint the picture. So let’s get a sort of a running start to the conversation. So yes, I was a professional musician, and as far as I’m concerned, if it paid any decent money, I probably would still be doing it. But as a professional musician, I went to a music conservatory to learn music, and I learned how to move from it, and I started as a saxophone player. But then moved into being a bass player because I couldn’t get gigs as a saxophone player. And what happened was I moved from someone that played the bass to a bass player, and it’s a nuance. But if you think about it in each of the functions in the business, are you a person that sells or are you a sales professional? Are you somebody that does payroll, or are you a payroll expert?
We Need to Get Better at Giving and Receiving Feedback
Dr. Tom Tonkin:
Right. What is that movement? And that movement comes from the ability to learn, to be self-directed and to accept feedback from not only people but things, situations and circumstances. And I think what happened was my experience in the conservatory where I get feedback all the time, right? Some my, my professors, my studio, teacher, yeah. Everyone had a studio teacher. So the person that kind of knew you think of it as a guidance counselor, if you will, who kind of knew your instrument and was able to help you, it, it was 95% feedback. You did this wrong, and you did that wrong. You should do this. You should do that. Don’t forget this. Don’t forget that. I grew up that way. I was a teenager when I started, and I ended up going in my twenties and you just kind of did that.
And when I got to the business world, there’s this barrier to feedback that goes up. Like, it’s a, like, you know, don’t say those things in public. And, you know, I remember sitting in a jazz ensemble and missing a note, like anyone would miss a note and the conductor who’s got, you know, ears like a, you know, like a Doberman would, would go, Hey, Tom, you know, that was a, B flat, not a B, do you know what key we’re in? Do you know? And I’m like, oh, yep, you’re right. I actually knew that I had made that mistake. Won’t happen again, everybody in the room, they know, but everybody in that room said, I coulda hit that B flat the same way everybody knew that they could have made that same mistake the same way. It was nothing to be that way. However, do you imagine sitting in a boardroom and somebody taking a look at Jenn? Yeah. That slide that you had up there with that number. Yeah. That’s wrong. Yeah. You really shouldn’t do that. It’s this other number, everybody. Could you hear what he said to her? Oh my goodness. I could, I should have pulled her aside and, and all this other stuff, but that’s because we have this sort of weird perspective of feedback. Where, so it’s, not the giving the feedback part. It’s the reception of the feedback that is all around. Because like when you play music in a professional jazz ensemble, the status quo is playing it perfectly. It’s not like, Hey, Hey, we only missed two notes. Yay. No, it’s playing it. Perfect. And everyone kind of says, okay, we jobs, you know, you, you hear about session players that play in LA and Nashville for other people’s music. You know, they get paid to play it right the first time. And they don’t. Nobody gets high fives or pats on the back. You just like, like you did your job. I don’t know. You know, thanks for showing up. Here’s your money go in, in, in business. It’s kind of weird. Isn’t it? Where someone says, well, we got close, so close. Yeah. Let’s hi-five.
It’s like, now isn’t the idea to get it right. And if we don’t get it right, shouldn’t someone help us get there and tell us it isn’t right. Or tell us what isn’t going. So it’s not so much the feedback as, as much as to the culture or the perspective that somehow you were outed or you were called out or, or something like that, that’s a bad thing. Let me pause there for your reaction. I feel like I spoke too much.
Jenn DeWall:
No, you think this is great. I love it. You know, I think what comes to mind for me off of that is, you know, I can still think of examples where I think, yeah, everyone absolutely did that. Oh my goodness. Can you hear what just happened? But then also there’s that opposite side of the feedback where, you know, I’m not necessarily feeling bad for that individual getting it, but then I’m also looking person giving the feedback to say, could you have probably said that in a better way? You know, so, and I think that ties into talking about language, which we’re gonna get into because I think, you know, you have to start with the culture. I totally agree with you, Tom. You have to start with paving that culture, creating a culture where people are open to feedback, but then there’s that accountability.
You can give feedback, but you also have to take a little bit more time to be intentional about how you deliver that feedback. I think that so often, especially when it comes down to disseminating opinions, there’s so much ego I’m right. You’re wrong. You are stupid. This is why you’re thing blank. And there’s so much emphasis around proving my worthiness proving my rightness that there’s no emphasis or accountability. And you know what, maybe I can describe that or share that in a different way. So I, I, I love this conversation and where it’s going. And I think it’s so important. We have to have the right culture. And we also have to have the right accountability for the leaders that, you know, depending on your culture, don’t get permission to personally attack, to do X, Y, Z, which I’ve observed in many corporate settings. So I don’t wanna pretend that it doesn’t exist. You know who you are. If you may be that person, you have gotta do some self-reflection and think, is this really productive? So let’s dive into that language component, unless you have a response on that one, but talk about the language that we use as it relates to dissenting opinions.
Becoming a “Business Anthropologist”
Dr. Tom Tonkin:
So I’m gonna start with an example of the economy. So how many times have you heard in the news in the press somewhere? And somebody said it’s a good economy, or it’s a bad economy. The economy is not a thing. It’s just, it isn’t a thing, right? The economy isn’t something that has a measurement, and it needs to be ten and not four. There’s no such thing. The economy is how money gets spent and how we all do business. The good and the bad come in from the point of view, just like, just like, if, if, if, if good things are happening to me, I’m gonna say the economy is good. If bad things are happening to me, I’m gonna say the economy is bad. Irrelevant what actually might be happening out there. Number one, number two, let’s then move closer to the business.
Change is always a good one. It’s a bad change. It’s a good change. Okay. Once again, who says it’s a good change? Well, it’s the people that benefit from the change. The bad change is the people that don’t benefit from the change. And so I think one of the ways is to govern ourselves a little more and start thinking about the qualifiers, good, bad up, down, big, small, right? That we put on to other things in the business. And I hear that language all the time, these qualifying languages, which I’ll tell you from my perspective, cuz I, I consider myself when I’m doing work with executives, I consider myself a business anthropologist, right? Oh, somebody that like dives in and kind of like, like the Indiana Jones of business, right. I’m looking around, and I see the jewels, and I’m trying to figure out how the little gold man got here, right.
And, and it, and it’s very, very interesting. There’s a great, great story. I wanna share with your listeners. One of my academic heroes, Edgar Schein, went to a large organization of a large organization in Switzerland. And the problem was that no one was collaborative. He’s like, we need to be more collaborative. I don’t understand it. So he says, I want you to fly in here, and we’re gonna talk about how we can be more collaborative. So he says, it comes down, he sits down, he’s in the lobby. He looks around, and it’s a beautiful lobby. The receptionist says, you know, so, and so’s ready to see you. He then gets up. They open this big wooden door, and there’s this long hallway with every single door of this hallway until offices closed. And then there are little lights above each of the doorways one and, and some lights were red, some lights were green, and some lights were turned off, and they’re just walking down this hallway and Edgar kind of leans over to of the receptionist and says, can you tell me about these lights? And he goes, oh sure. Red means someone’s in the room, but you don’t disturb them. And you can’t knock. Green means they’re in there, but you have to knock before you go in. And when it’s not on, it means that nobody’s in the office, but all the doors are closed. And he says, I think I know what the problem is. When I look at these kinds of businesses, that, that anthropological look when I am across from the CEO and the CEO says to me- true story- you know, my people aren’t motivated. You know, they don’t wanna change anything. As a matter of fact, every time we have a team meeting on Fridays, everybody sits in the same chair. And I’m going, okay. What’d you do about it?
And he said, what do you mean? What’d I do about it? I’m like, what seems like it bothers you? What did you do? And he’s like, I didn’t do anything. So you just kept doing what you kept doing yourself. You basically telegraphed that status quo, and not doing anything is what everybody should do. So everybody’s following your lead. So you’re talking about language, good, bad, up, down. Closed-door, red light. Don’t do anything, right? These are all giving off signals that create your cultural norms, and you don’t even know it again. I’m not being disparaging. I’m just saying this is human nature. And when you watch it in full display, it’s phenomenal to see not only the problem but how easy it is to fix.
Decision-Making and Leadership Constraints
Jenn DeWall:
I love talking about— did you do anything about it? No. You know, because I think it’s so it’s obvious it’s so easy to complain about anything and not do anything about it. I probably did it two hours ago. Right? There’s yeah. True. That is human nature. And so yes, to reinforce, we’re not judging you. We’re not saying it’s bad, but we are saying maybe there’s a little bit more opportunity to put on your own anthropological hat and say what could really be going on. So I wanna talk about that because why don’t we say something? What are today’s leadership constraints that can make it more challenging for leaders?
Dr. Tom Tonkin:
Well, I think there are three that come to mind that I think will sum up pretty much what we’ve been talking about. I think the first one is sort of this, this lack of self-assurance. Are you comfortable or uncomfortable with consequences? So make a, you make, when I, and now I’m going make this language on purpose. You make a bad decision. Remember I told you that decisions aren’t bad. That’s the qualifier.
Jenn DeWall:
Just your point of view, which I think should help everyone.
Dr. Tom Tonkin:
Exactly.
Jenn DeWall:
Right. They are just a point of view. We, you know, there has to be more research to understand whether they’re bad or good. And it’s just someone’s point of view.
Anticipated Change— The Good, The Bad and the Unexpected
Dr. Tom Tonkin:
Yeah. So then you go, you make this bad decision. You made a decision that didn’t get to the outcome you wanted to come; therefore, you qualify it as bad. Are you comfortable with that consequence to be able to say, oh, I screwed up? I need to make decisions. As a matter of fact, I screwed up, but you need to help me fix it. Are you comfortable with that interaction? And does your culture allow for that? That’s one thing. And I’m gonna suggest that that’s a big thing. The second one is this idea of personal values. What I like to do is, is I like to pre-think decisions. I like when I visualize there’s a great video for everyone out there about visualization with Michael Phelps, Michael Phelps, does more swimming in his head than in the pool. And for example, he does this visualization exercise. His coach taught him to think about— what happens if your swim trunks rip when you’re swimming? What do you do? Pre-think that decision. Pre-think all the things that could go wrong all the single time. So when you then jump in the pool, nothing will be a surprise to you. Not only won’t it be a surprise to you, you actually have a solution for it.
Jenn DeWall:
What can I ask a question? Sure. What if you have a tendency, because I see this in my coaching world where sometimes people can be great at visioning or, you know, you can call it scenario planning, but what happens when you just always think that every single thing is gonna go wrong instead of thinking, but what if you know my swim, my swimsuit doesn’t rip. What if I do this? Like, I’m just curious what you say, like how you would respond to that. Because I think some people listening might be like, okay, well, let me make sure that I’m anticipating every worst possible outcome. And then, all of a sudden, you feel more stressed, burned out, disengaged. How would you approach that?
Dr. Tom Tonkin:
Yeah. So let, let me give your listener something to jot down to help them out. Basically, there are three types of change that can occur at any time. There’s what’s called anticipated change. It’s gonna go, like, I think it’s gonna go, there’s emergent change. It’s something’s gonna show up that I don’t wanna have to happen, and there’s opportunistic change, which is so something that I didn’t expect to happen, but actually was good. So what I like to do is, so those are the three things that you can have in your visualization. When people are visualizing it, make sure you fill all three buckets, visualize anticipated things, visualize emergent things or things that are anticipated, but not what you wanna have to happen and opportunistic not anticipated, but actually a welcomed sight.
Jenn DeWall:
Oh my gosh. I love that. And thank you for saying that, because again, I just hear that all the time. I’m like, well, well heck what? Of course, you’re not feeling enthusiastic or energized. You think that the world is gonna completely fall apart in the next week. Yeah. That would make me not wanna get outta bed. So I love that!
Dr. Tom Tonkin:
Right? So you’re, so you’re, you know, you’ve got two little buckets and opportunistic, and you know, and anticipated, and you’ve got this big emergent bucket. Right. Unfortunately, that’s a very human quality, but I think it would be healthy if people would go that in a cognitive way and just make sure that all buckets are filled.
Jenn DeWall:
I love that. So let’s yeah. Let’s go back. Sorry that I interrupted you. I just wanted to ask that. How do you, so let’s go back to talking about personal values and pre-thinking the decision. So you were talking about Michael Phelps’s example envisioning.
Personal Values and Regrets
Dr. Tom Tonkin:
Yeah, there, there’s also the other thing that I wanna bring up around personal values around regrets. Now there’s a great book. That’s gonna come out by Dan Pink about regrets. And I look forward to it’s it’s, it’s not out yet. Great authors as everyone, probably on your podcast as listened to, but I have talked, I’ve thought about regrets in the past. And regrets- part of the reason that we have regrets is that we are looking backward with today’s values. So that Friday night in college, when you thought that, you know, having 18 beers was a really good idea, and then getting sick. Well, that night, it was a good idea for whatever reason, you know, maybe even the next day, you regret doing that, but you’re now regretting it with a set of values that are today.
And so that’s why personal values as a whole, it’s very important for you to be in tune with those. And, I regret a ton of things that I’ve done in my past, but because I am using my values of today that have matured over time. And I look back because some of those decisions I made at the time, you know, seem like a good idea because those were my values back then. So personal values were a very important issue with leadership constraints. And that’s why when I’m when I think about people making those decisions, you know, what are you, what are you looking around? What are the value systems that you have? Sometimes people are going— well, I need to keep my job. I’m making the popular decision, even though it’s not the right decision. Well, if you have a personal set of values, that’s like a slap you in the face.
And it’s something that ten years from now, you’re gonna look back and go. I compromised my values. So I think, I think that’s one. And then last, last one, because I have three of these ideas of these leadership constraints is this idea of lack of empowerment. Now, lack of empowerment, if any, didn’t hear me. So lack of empowerment is one of those mushy business terms. Hey, let’s all be empowered, right? I put a little fine point to it. I say empowerment comes with authority and resources. So, and I’m not talking about massive authority. I’m talking about you have a job, Jenn. And if I want to empower you, let’s say, I’m your boss. I need to give you the authority to do it. And I need to give you the resources to do it, in that little cocoon. And I think sometimes when a leader says, I want this to happen, but they don’t empower their people, i.e., resources and authority to get it done. Now you have this sort of artificial leadership constraint. You’re asking people to do this thing with both hands tied behind their back. Yeah. And so I think you have to understand what that empowerment means. It’s not, this shouldn’t be a bullet in your QBR at the end of the quarter to your stockholders, right. It has to be something that actually is out in the field and people can touch and feel and, and be able to act on.
Jenn DeWall:
Yeah. Making sure that people actually can have autonomy over a decision. Or I love that the description of you’re giving people essentially a task to do with both of their hands tied. How are you setting your leaders up for success, including yourself. Exactly. Maybe you need to ask for more autonomy or more responsibility, because I think one piece of that too, is, you know, us advocating for ourselves and learning how to advocate to say, this is what I need. Can you help me instead of saying, well, I guess they didn’t give it to me. So I guess I can’t do it. Not sure why, where I just led it to that tangent, but yeah. I I’ve loved our conversation, you know, so much, I mean, again, the, one of the takeaways that will stick with me is just because a different it’s different doesn’t mean that it’s wrong.
And then I also being mindful of those qualifiers. You can say something is good or bad, but as a matter of fact, it’s likely just a point of view, unless you have data that you can benchmark against a strategy or an expected result to actually say, yeah, this was less-than, where we went. And I think a lot of people missed the boat on actually even assessing that. Or they might look at a top-level revenue instead of looking at maybe a strategy and how that contributed to the revenue. And I think there’s the missed opportunities, Tom. I know I want to invite you back because I think you’re just an excellent, like wealth of knowledge. But I, I want people to be able to get in touch with you and know that we’re coming down on time. How can people connect with you? I know I’m gonna add and talk about one of your assessments in the bumpers, but I want them to hear about that from you first. How can they get in touch with you?
Where to Find Dr. Tonkin
Dr. Tom Tonkin:
Yeah, so, so I am all about lowering the barrier of entry to talk to me. I am the, on the other half of the hill of my career. And there is an aspect of me that wants to leave a legacy. And if that legacy is a two-minute phone call that I can tell somebody something from my past- let’s do it. If anybody knows how to use the application Boxer, which is kind of a fancy asynchronous-synchronous voicemail, text messaging thing, very, very cool free at Dr. Tom Tonkin, Dr. Tom Tonkin, box me, I’ve had plenty people do that where they just say, I have one question about something you said on a podcast, and it’d be great. Second. Obviously, there are plenty of places. My party trick Jenn is that if you go to Google and type in Tom-space-Tonkin, I’m on the first page of Google.
And not that I’m famous or anything is that I think I understand how the Google algorithm works. And so that’s a little bit of a party trick. Hey, I, I did that by the way at a cashier, I had, Hey, you got your cell phone. Why don’t you type in any way, a long story, but it was funny. So, and then so yeah, please connect on Twitter, LinkedIn. It’d be hard to miss me. And then lastly, I wanna leave something for your listeners. I talked a little bit about self-direction and self-directed learning, and the ability to be more autonomous in your way. We actually have an assessment, one that I personally researched and created, and in the show notes, there’s a link to it. It’s an obscure URL because it’s not really out yet. It’s gonna be for, for a fee but for you and your listeners, and it’ll be for free. So go head out to the show notes to click on the link. You may be surprised what you find out a little bit about yourself and your own self-direction
Jenn DeWall:
Oh my gosh, Tom, thank you so much for that special offer for our audience. And again, thank you so much for sharing your time, your expertise, all of those nuggets that you just shared with us. It was great to have you on the show.
Dr. Tom Tonkin:
Thank you, Jenn. I look forward to doing it again.
Check Out Dr. Tonkin’s Free (For Now) Leadership Assessment!
Jenn DeWall:
Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I really enjoyed my conversation with Dr. Tonkin. If you want to connect with him or learn more, you can actually call him on Boxer. That’s an app. You can call him on Boxer under Dr. Tom Tonkin, or you can connect with him on LinkedIn. Also, if you want to, they’re offering right now a limited time, a DLI assessment for free. So you can follow the link in our show notes, and that will take you to access that assessment. And of course, if you enjoyed this podcast, share it with other leaders to help them grow.
