How to Recover from a Crisis with Communications Expert Zach Giglio

Jenn DeWall:

Hi, everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Zach Giglio. Zach is a communications expert with more than a decade of experience in public relations, public affairs marketing, and both digital and social media. He has worked for the largest public relations agency in the world in both Washington, DC and Johannesburg. And he’s also worked as an independent contractor. Today, Zach is the CEO of his own boutique communications firm. And we are going to be talking all about how you can recover from a crisis. Now, before you turn this off, I want you to know that crisis isn’t necessarily that big, bad thing that we’d see in the news. It could also be a mistake, a misstep, or maybe something that, you know, that’s broken trust that you need to recover from. So enjoy as Zach shares his tips on what to do to recover from a crisis.

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and on this week’s episode, I’m sitting down with the CEO of GCM, Zach Giglio. Zach, thanks so much for joining us today on The Leadership Habit. It’s great to have you.

Zach Giglio:

Thanks for having me. I’m really looking forward to the conversation.

Meet Zach Giglio, CEO at GCM

Jenn DeWall:

So you’re a CEO. You have a fantastic business. I know in our pre-call we just went in so many different directions in terms of leadership, what you can do, but for our listeners, could you just talk a little bit about your story, how you came to be because today we’re going to be talking about how do you recover from a crisis? And some people might be thinking, well, I’m not in a crisis moment, but a criticism could be even a small mistake that you make to a consumer to all the way of the big ones, where we have to rebuild trust. So as you’re listening to, Zach’s going to give insights from his experience, but he has great experience and background and knowledge in terms of helping you make sure that you’re doing the right things in that point of crisis, mistake, whatever we want to call it, to make sure that you are rebuilding trust to make sure that you are connecting. And, of course, rebuilding the image that you might have as a leader or an organization. So Zach, yeah, let’s kick it off. How did you come to be? Like, how did you get into this line of work? What’s your background and experience? Please share with our listeners.

Zach Giglio:

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for that. And I’m looking forward to talking about the crisis, and that’s a good point just before I get into it about people think crisis, we think it’s just like the massive thing that has to happen, but it also refers to those smaller things, which could eventually turn into that massive thing that you don’t want, too, if you don’t deal with it. So that’s a good plan. I think I think it’s good for people to remember that. So, you know, I don’t know what it was like, there’s I try to like put logic behind, like how did I get into comms? And it’s really hard for me to think about, except when I was younger, people always said I should be a lawyer. I never really had that much difficulty finding some common ground with people when I was talking to him about something.

So what I was telling them a story or an argument or disagreement, I always loved being able to like reach people on some human level where I felt like relapsing either. And that was even as a kid. I was getting in trouble for something, you know, I got like a bad grade on the test or something way worse. You know. So I always liked that. So I should be a lawyer, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but it just never felt right. And so, I thought like the next logical thing was somehow getting into communication. So I could tell stories for a living, figure out how to communicate messages in a way that resonated with people. And so I got started with that, and that’s what I ended up falling in love doing. And I think the other combination of that, and I’ve had the privilege of being able to travel.

They’ve been working around the world. So I’m from Long Island, New York, but I’ve also lived in working around Shanghai, in China, in Johannesburg, South Africa, in Washington, DC for a while. And now we’re in the Charleston area in South Carolina, and something that was a constant, that was really strong for me was the power that human connection we made on my memory on my life and on where my life was going after those moments, whether it was from China back to DC or DC over to South Africa and things. And I realized after, especially starting in my professional career, that nothing happened of significance that wasn’t based on some sort of strong human-level connection. And so when we were deciding to go on our own and to do our own thing with GCM, my wife and I, it was my business partner who I met in China and did most of these travels with me, and she’s from South Africa.

Creating Human Connections

Zach Giglio:

We, we decided that we wanted to create these human connections that we’ve had the fortune of having, but just on a much larger scale with large businesses so we can maximize, but this ability or anybody’s ability to create those human connections, which again, we know, move that needle. And so GCMS, a family-founded global comms agency. We believe in the power of business as a force for good and in human connection. And we get to know our clients from the inside out, and we create thoughtful communications and marketing campaigns that we think resonate on a human level.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. And that’s what’s so important these days. I think from a consumer perspective. It is really hard when you feel like you’re being sold something without even them seeing you in the equation. I mean, I even think about just the one-off, maybe LinkedIn conversations. I’m so reluctant to sometimes even accept a new request because I know that it could potentially unleash the I’ve someone else shared this ex this phrase pitch-slapping, or you might get “networked on” where they just, you know, go into your email box and don’t even think about you as a human. And I think so many people are, so I get it, they’ve got great products, great services, but yet the gap that they can’t bridge is that human communication piece or that human connection piece. And that’s what I think is so important about what does, because you can’t just try to promote your service, and we know that, but then again, if we know it, why the heck am I receiving these very awkward LinkedIn requests? If you know that it’s all about building trust and being real. I mean, I don’t know if you have any take on that. It’s still interesting that I think we, that piece of genuine human connection, is missing in some of those platforms that we have to use, and that makes me just kind of want to, you know, avoid or not work with someone because they’re not treating me or seeing me as an individual. They’re seeing me as someone that could buy their service.

Zach Giglio:

Yeah. I, I don’t think I could say it better, but basically, the way you just said it, quite honestly. And I might actually steal some of that like percent use because you’ve put like a really good, like a really fine point on it. And that’s exactly like when something’s happening to us, we feel it. Like, we, we do not control in any situation in our life, those feelings we have when something happens to us. Like scientifically, like, like we don’t control those feelings, we can control what we do with that, but we don’t control those feelings. And we know somewhere at a deep level, like when we’re not- to your point- when we’re “networked on,” which is such a, such a funny phrase. But, but it’s, it’s completely true. And a lot of times the worst thing, especially you got going back to this LinkedIn thing, is when it is, it’s so forced in the pitches, but it is, it is templatized in a way that is supposed to like sound human as if it’s like talk and then at least if you’re doing a numbers game like if it was me, I would be like, look, I have no idea who you are. I just Googled you or searched you because you’re the CEO or you some company and my business like survives on a numbers game. So I’m sending as many of these out there like, as possible, hoping that you need my service. I would look at that and be like, that’s awesome. That is totally true and authentic. You’re not considering me, but at least you’re acknowledging that. Like, that’s rather than being like, Hey, I really love what you’re doing at insert company name. So many times where I get, I get messages where it’s like, where they’re like, Hey, just wondering if you’re ready for a change and kind of getting tired at your work at GCM. And I was like, I founded it. It’s like, what do you like, what are you going to get another job? Like, that’s not, that’s not how that works. But you raise a good point. Like in all seriousness, that is the problem with it is like, we’re not being treated as, as humans. And I don’t know how much that stuff works. But when we’re not being treated as humans, when the language isn’t resonating with us on a global level, we’re just not going to do anything with it.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. I just, that’s what I love about your organization and what you’re trying to do because I would appreciate it. If someone honestly did come at me and say, Hey, I know you don’t know you at all. I know we’ve never worked together. I would love to get to know more about you, but it’s not. Hey, did you have time to check out my blank, blank, blank that I sent you that you didn’t ask for? No, I didn’t because I didn’t need it. And also, yes, everyone else, you know, and I, I get the sense of having that system and that customizable message. That’s quick, like copy-paste. You know, you could see the numbers game piece, but everyone’s doing that. Now that message is the exact same. I really appreciate the work that you do really blank, blank, blank. Like those messages are everywhere.

And it just makes me again want to avoid that. So I think it’s so important that GCM is taking the stance of like, how can we actually build these authentic connections? Because that’s what I feel like Crestcom does as a leader. Like how can we actually show people to be the best leader, to connect at a deep level, to create an inclusive environment? And so I think it’s so important and we’re going to be talking about today, like, how to recover from a crisis, which is actually a topic that, you know, I know that you can do that because that’s, you know, part of what GCM does as well in terms of how do you inspire those human connections? How do you rebuild that human connection when it might’ve been lost? Because we might’ve made missteps as a leader, right? You might have maybe gone all-in on a strategy that then you realized wasn’t a great fit and you have to rebuild trust, or maybe you have maybe broken trust with your customer, and you’re trying to rebuild, or maybe there is a bigger public scandal or misstep that hit the headlines or current events.

Jenn DeWall:

And you really need to do some deep, I guess, public relations on managing that image. So you don’t drop your market share. So no matter where you are in the organization, this is an important topic. How do you recover from a crisis? How do you require or recover from a mistake? Like that’s what we’re going to be talking about today. And I think it’s one that is not always talked about, probably because it’s uncomfortable because typically, if you attach the word crisis, it means that there might be some feelings on it or points of view. And so, how do you even begin to address that question, right? You typically the people that are coming to you to say, how do I recover from a crisis are likely in crisis mode. They’re not proactively thinking and planning. How can I actually make sure I manage these things? If they go awry?

Be Prepared for Crisis Before the Crisis

Zach Giglio:

Oh yeah. Crisis is like the hardest service to sell because you ideally want to sell it and start doing like working in crisis before, to your point, a crisis happens. Because one, you should be doing like an audit. Like where is the crisis? Like, like potentials, how do we plan for that? Are there things that maybe we are, you should be doing a little bit more or for a little bit best stuff, because we don’t really want that to happen? Like there’s a lot of times where the comms industry can lead on really important structural change within an organization just by going because they might not like it. It’s not to your point. Like, oh, maybe you’ve made a mistake, but like, if you’re not leading hard enough or you’re not like going out there and doing enough, then you might not make a mistake, but you should.

I think people can see making mistakes as a good sign that they’re growing, that they’re taking chances that they’re trying things. Because if you’re not making mistakes, then maybe you’re being a little bit too conservative. And like, you’re not trying enough where you’re not putting yourself out there enough. So it will happen. A hundred percent, you will make a mistake on some level, whether it’s you or your entire organization. But I think it is very normal for people within an organization to be a little bit more blind to, or it’s harder for them to see maybe where some of those mistakes actually are. And so by working with the con professional, before a crisis happens, you can start maybe sussing that stuff out, but when a crisis happens or when something’s wrong, it’s, it’s also like, even at the moment you would think, okay, well, we’re an organization that understands we’re having a crisis and we need to do something about it.

We need to start communicating. We need to change some things. But even then, like within organizations, it’s very common for not everybody to be on the same page in an organization on whether or not there’s even a crisis happening and whether or not that even needs to be a plan. I mean, like that is like the first step. It’s not like, oh, we have a crisis. What do we do? It’s like, we have a crisis. Right? Like this is actually a problem that we need to be working on, right? I mean, I was in a conversation, not like a week or so ago, and there wasn’t alignment, and we couldn’t help him because half the people thought there was a crisis and that they should do something. And the other half didn’t think it was significant. It was a tie, but it was very significant.

Jenn DeWall:

It is challenging to have that. I mean, we know that in leaders and organizations, different points of view, different perspectives and, and how difficult to try and help when you can’t have consensus. I want to back up just to people that might be unfamiliar or less exposed when Zach is saying “comms” – he means the communications industry. So if you would say communications industry in a different way like, would you describe that as more like branding or public relations? How would you describe that to someone that might be outside of that?

Zach Giglio:

Yeah. I mean, that’s good, that’s a good point. And now I’ll remember to be a little bit more descriptive, but so comms— depends on which part- like we at GCM are a full-service agency. So we do everything. So within comms in our purview is public relations. So that could be like media pitching messaging interviews, things like that, or it could be social media. So that could be content, production, design, community management. It could be crisis communications, which was like crisis communications. Also, what would fall under that if a pandemic hits and the CEO of a very large organization needs to inform its employees of a change or something bad happening or something. You know, just like sales are going down or facilities are closing— that’s a crisis as well. I got nothing that it’s not just like, someone’s done something wrong. And then also when we do like report writing and design, all that stuff. So like in, in our world, it’s comms. Some people call that marketing. So we say communications or marketing, depending on where you are. The only thing I would say it’s slightly not is like advertising, but even advertising has a lot to do with comms, but there’s just a little bit more of a specific skillset for advertising because you have to understand kind of like the backend of advertising. Where we’re we’re comms also has branding and workshops and things like that. So if there’s something that needs to be communicated, that’s comms!

Are You Sure It’s a Crisis?

Jenn DeWall:

Okay. Thank you for it. I appreciate that because it gives me a better perspective too. I feel like I can actually observe the true robustness of that industry. So going back to the, how do you recover from a crisis? I like that thinking like, can you even gain consensus on whether or not a crisis is happening? I mean, going back to that conversation because yeah. What, what do you do if someone can’t come to an agreement about the crisis? Then I feel like, what are you doing? Are you either crossing your fingers and hoping it doesn’t actually go up to something else? Or you’re just kind of like, okay, well, we’ll see. I mean, I don’t. What have you seen happen? And we’re going to get into, like, where you need to start. What, so that’s going to be coming up, but I’m curious, like how do they even resolve that? What do you see potentially happen when they can’t reach a consensus?

Zach Giglio:

So, so if, if they truly can’t reach a consensus, depending on who’s calling the final shot, it could very well be that nothing happens. That you’ve had a conversation, you’ve made a recommendation on this is how I would start dealing with this situation. Maybe we should start doing this. Maybe there should be a direct call there, but you know, five or six different things. But the answer at the end of the day could be like, we don’t think this is a crisis, and we don’t want to react to it. Because they might see it as distracting from a bigger picture, which I get that, like, I get that. And that is a very strong balance. Quite honestly, that a crisis communications professional and their team need to need to strike, which is how do you respond to a crisis publicly or even privately in a way that it’s not knocking you completely off of what your entire comms and business strategy is anyway because you don’t want that to happen.

Now, there are some crises that are so great that you actually do need to halt everything and address it. 90, probably 90-99% of all crises, you don’t need to stop your entire business organization and all of your other communications. You just may want. So like, for instance, let’s say like, let’s say you had like a disgruntled employee who was slandering the company saying that things are untrue about like the fabric you used it in your shirts. Like, and they’re going to think it’s a lie. It’s not all this, and it’s actually something. One strategy you could do as a proactive, comms thing is not. You don’t want to directly if it’s not true. I mean, if it’s true, you need to get your stuff together.

But if it’s, if it’s not true, you know, you don’t necessarily want to give credence to the disgruntled employee for spreading lies, but you also have to understand that there’s a possibility that some sort of like a controversial, inflammatory statement on social media could gain steam and you want to get ahead of that. So what should you do? You start creating or at least prioritizing content that shows or verifies the credibility of the fabric and all the quality of the materials that you use in your stuff anyway. So you’re addressing it, but an indirect way that is proactive and prioritizing messages in a different way than like, so that in, in my head, it’s like a reasonable balance. Like, well, it’s obvious that already the shirt in our made-up shirt company, like prioritize it, I think is important about what materials they use and all their products dash what’s the attack. That’s not necessarily so far outside of the realm of what you should be communicating. We’re just saying maybe prioritize that a little bit more now. So that’s, that’s, that’s the balance because you don’t want to throw the entire company in a completely new direction, just because one thing is a bad thing is happening. Although again, depending on how large that crisis is.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. I like that answer too, of thinking that brings up even, how do you manage when, so I know in the day of Glassdoor or LinkedIn, where people are able to write reviews of your organization, that can be something that, I guess, from my perspective, I see so many more people using that as a starting point of whether or not they want to invest in your culture. And so, to some extent, if you’re not addressing it, then you may be leaving stuff on the table that could be creating the wrong picture. But we’re going to dive in. I don’t know if you have any comments on how organizations even address that, because it is, how do you determine like, okay, this is one disgruntled employee versus what’s the impact that this is going to have. And you know, and how well are people going to be able to deduce that there could be something missing, right? That you know, that employee could have done X, Y, Z, and then they wrote that comment. Like, you don’t necessarily want to own that. That’s all on them. But how do you even decide at this age where employees can write those reviews? Like, how do you even decide how to address that? Because if they go there negatively, they’re not like, well, I just want to let everyone know. I love this organization. Typically when you have that, they’re not necessarily going there to share the love.

Zach Giglio:

So really good point. And this is where crisis work should begin. It’s way before you have that discount to the employee on Glassdoor, having one of five reviews, that’s a zero star or whatever it is, right? Like, because at that point, whether you like it or not, it matters because if you have no, I mean, I know I have multiple examples of clients that I’ve worked for either through GCM or back in my previous lives, where they’ve come to us saying we had one bad issue come up five years ago, but it’s the only thing people can find online about us. And we’ve l we’re losing contracts because of it. Or we can’t hire because the only two reviews on Glassdoor that are about us are bad, like than does like whether or not you want to believe like those negative reviews have an insane impact because it is the only thing out there.

Zach Giglio:

So the way that proactive communications can help. That is if you start making sure that there are positive, truthful stories out there, whether it’s online reviews, whether it’s news coverage, whether it’s your own content, whether it’s video is there’s already stuff out there. So not if when the negative stuff comes, it is among, ideally, a sea of positive stuff, or at least neutral stuff. Because by the time you get to one out of like five or two out of 10 reviews or really bad, or one out of like ten new stories are really bad. You can’t, and the decision is made. It matters. It’s impacting your business. Because I mean, think about all the times you’ve heard about it, but think about all the times you haven’t heard, someone’s searched you, and they see that. And then they go somewhere else. So if you’re not actively producing positive stories and content, you’re leaving yourself extremely vulnerable to be at the whims of a disgruntled employee or have one bad thing truly happening, which will happen because we’re human, and we make mistakes.

How to Recover from Mistakes

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. And they like that. Even from a leadership perspective, that if you’re not holding yourself accountable, to matching your words and actions, or if you’re not showing up in a way that’s productive, right. If you do not own it, taking responsibility for that misstep, then that does the same thing. Whether it’s Glassdoor externally, that’s also happening inside of saying, do I really want to listen to Jenn? She seems to do this. You lose your influence, and you lose your trust. And then, all of a sudden, they might be like, I don’t even want to work with Jenn, and they might leave. And so, you know, I want to just keep bringing it back to that because people might think, oh God, and this is, you know, not necessarily something that has to deal with me, but as leaders, it does even directly related to the communications because these little things, these are happening in also smaller-scale ways just within your team or department. So let’s, let’s dive into it now, Zach, like, how do you even start to recover from that mistake or that past misstep up, you know, whatever is kind of haunting you, where do you start?

Zach Giglio:

Yeah. So it’s a good question. So there’s, I think there are two different things that kind of go together. So on the one hand, you have your very well-tested fundamental block and tackle crisis communications template of like, if there’s a crisis, if something goes wrong, these are the three steps you take, on the other hand, there’s this whole idea of, well, who is your business? And who are you really as an organization? Or who are you really as a leader? And if you can understand that, that reset process that is tried and true becomes way more clear and effective than if you don’t know. And now you’re like employing tactics that are based on a very shaky if any foundation, so I do so. So if we just assume that people have a good understanding of who they are, what their values are, what their principles are.

And we can talk about how we can get to that in a second. But let me just give, like the really tried and true crisis comm like a three-step program, basically. So you’ve done so crisis habit, you’ve made a mistake, let’s say in this scenario, the mistake is true. You actually did make a mistake. You forgot to pay your taxes on the new extension on your house, or you said something really inappropriate to somebody, or you made whatever, there are three things. You do, one you admit and own the mistake. Like don’t admit and own things that you didn’t do that you’re not responsible for, but as much as you possibly can admit the mistake. The second thing you do is you talk about what action or actions have you, are you taking to fix that mistake, those specific things you need to say what’s being done to either have already fixed it or fixing it.

And then number three, people want to know, okay, fine. But what about the future? Now you have to talk about what things you’re doing in addition to what you’ve already done that will prevent something like this from happening again in the future. And the problem with this is if you don’t have this understanding- first of all, like if you’re not genuine and like, you’re not actually doing things to fix it, like don’t fix it, just own it and be like, yeah, this is a mistake. And I’m going to keep making this mistake. Like, just say that. But if you’re somebody who actually wants to fix it, you need to really understand who you are and what you actually want to fix. Because the problem that we see happening all the time is they take that very tried and true template, which I’m sure you could Google on fine and they just like put it over a shaky foundation and a lack of understanding of who you are as an organization of who you are as a leader, and it rings completely untrue. Or you’re actually saying things that are disingenuous, to what you actually mean and what you actually want to. Correct. And you’re doing, and you could be doing one or two, one of two things. One, you could be making the people who were upset already more upset or two, you could be betraying your own identity and making the people who were upset actually about this crisis. Now they’re upset because you’ve betrayed them. So it’s really important to have a solid understanding of your identity before you get into a crisis. So you can put together a good plan.

The Importance of Owning Who You Are and What Has Happened

Jenn DeWall:

And I think it’s, that’s, you have to own it to control it. Who are you as a leader? Who are you as a team? Where are you as an organization? And are you in alignment with that? And starting with owning it. And I think you, you hit the nail on the head because how can you confidently even communicate something if you don’t know who you are, if you are a leader, for example, that wants to leave maybe a little bit more, you know, do, as I say, not as I do then apologizing for not being inclusive might actually feel really awkward because the people might be like, why would you do that? That’s not, and we know you’re not that. And so I like that example because a lot of times people just, and this is a challenge with, with everything, right? We try to be everything to everyone.

And if we don’t know who we are, then we absolutely could be either alienating the people that love us or bringing them on and, you know, bringing new people that may not enjoy us. And so I really appreciate you talking about, you have to know who you are, to be able to know what you’re going to stand for, what you’re going to fall for, and how you’re going to manage it. And you had said, you have to own it. Then you have to describe what you’re doing. I have a feeling I actually would be more curious. What part of the process do you think people miss more? Is it that they don’t know who they are? Is it that they just think that, well, I know who I am, but I don’t have to explain to you what I’m going to do. Like where, where do you think people fail in that process?

Zach Giglio:

So I think there are two. I find two things that happen. One people aren’t willing to admit their mistakes. So people have a really hard time actually owning where they faltered. Because they have, they’ve been told that they had this idea that they have to show strength, which means never being wrong. But actually, we know, and I think there’s an increasing appreciation from the market of vulnerability, actually being a true sign of strength. I can remember. I think it was Jay Z talking about it at his rock and roll hall of fame acceptance speech over the weekend. I think that’s what he was talking about, too, is how like he’s come to realize that being vulnerable this is, I can get into rap tangents all day long, but he’s his 4 44 album where he was really open and honest and vulnerable. People see it as his strongest album. It is the most he’s ever shown strength. And there’s this. I bring it up because this is even in pop culture. There is this big, this larger appreciation for being vulnerable. But I think people were once told that being vulnerable shows weakness. So people don’t wanna admit a mistake. They don’t want to say, Nah, this, this was wrong. I could have done something different- they don’t want to.

Don’t Apologize for Who You Are

Zach Giglio:

So that’s, that’s one, but then there are the people who think that they should be admitting to it, like saying, sorry for everything. And that they’re going to do, like, to your point about like, I’m going to try to be way more inclusive. Even though like in my, in my like management style or in my leadership style, I’m like get in line or get off. Yeah. And now if I’m, if someone has been unhappy about that and now I’m apologizing for who I am and now saying, oh, and in the future, I’m going to wait, be way more inclusive. What about all the people who are in line and who’re ready to stay on for a long time. Now they’re looking up, saying, but this is why we love you. This is why we’re here. And now you’re telling me that you’re not going to do this anymore. So I think it’s like the two, the two swings of the pendulum. It’s like people aren’t willing to actually have any ownership. Or they try to own way too much. It’s beyond their control and has nothing to do with who they are. And they make amends for things that, like, shouldn’t be made amends. But like whoever you are, the one example I think illustrates, sits really beautifully is I think they’ve fallen a bit from ike consumer grace, but it was Southwest airlines for like years was the, was one of the top 10 brands in America, which is the most unbelievable feat and airline company can do.

Like, nobody likes flying. Nobody likes flying. The planes are so small. You can never even get your bag in the overhead and hate to check it. There’s increasing turbulence. It’s like, nobody likes flying. And yet Southwest is somehow one of the top 10, most loved brands in America for like years in a row. I don’t think they are at this moment. But during this time they had, they had decided that they were going to bring light into traveling because it’s about having a good time. And like, and really travel is like, no, one’s like on a plane. Most people don’t go on a plane to go somewhere that they hate being. They are on vacation. You wanna visit family. Like, there’s always somewhere you are going. So they wanted to be a part of this experience and decided, like, let’s have fun. And so during the safety demonstration, they were making light about, they were making jokes and all of this.

And I remember I remember it happening and being like, I’m actually paying attention to this stuff, you know, like, and they got a letter from this lady who had had like a son or like a child on the plane or something like that. And they got a letter that went to the CEO and CEO she saw, and it said basically like, I don’t appreciate you making light of a very serious thing. Like I’m a nervous flyer. My child’s protection should come first. I wish you and your organization would take, you know, safety on airlines more seriously, something to that effect. And the CEO actually responded with four words. We will miss you. He wasn’t going to apologize to her. He wasn’t going to say, and this is not who we are because he understood who they were as an organization. And he wasn’t being mean, he said, we will miss you. Like, I’m sorry, like ways to communicate – we’re sorry it is not working out for you, but we can’t betray who we are and what we’re trying to do for people because you’re not happy with us.

Zach Giglio:

And it’s to your point, Jenn, about like, not trying to be everything for everybody. And like, if that is the real key, whether you’re a leader, like a CEO at that time, or you’re an organization that’s like, that could have been a crisis. I mean, imagine if they handle that wrong, and they’re like, oh, I’m so sorry, we’ll take it more seriously. Now all the people like me who were enjoying. And I, by the way, I used to get very nervous black, who was enjoying that levity to break up the tension I felt. And now I’m going to be like. You’re betraying me now. And so it was strong, and they kept their standing as a loved brand for a long time.

Not Everyone Will Like You, and That’s Fine

Jenn DeWall:

I just think that’s a powerful example of why you can’t and even bringing it back to leadership. Like you can not be everything to everyone. And that’s why you have to know who you are because as much as I even wish that every single person listening to this podcast is like, wow, this is such a great thing. They’re not, right? That’s the reality. Like, I want that, of course, but I can’t also be everything to everyone. And there’s the next person that can do that. And like, that’s okay. Because I think in terms of, you know, bringing it back to human connection, the more that we try to pretend that we’re everything to everyone, the lack of real connection, you know, there’s nothing that to go off of because I’m just like making myself a mold of whatever you want to see.

And then how do you even build trust? Because you’re not being consistent, or someone might think, oh, Jenn, like, you know, for me, most people probably know. I like to joke around a lot. I’m not probably your traditional leader. I would call myself maybe a corporate misfit because I just didn’t get the role. Like I can’t pretend that I’m that anymore. I can’t pretend that like I was that. And as much as I wish I could be someone that looks like they have it all together or someone that withholds XYZ. It’s not like that’s just who I am. I will totally fall walking up a set of stairs. I will do X, Y, Z. Like, that’s who I am. I can’t even pretend that I’m much more put together, like, you know, in that perfect package. Right. That’s sometimes people try to portrait because it’s just, it’s too hard, and it’s not true.

I will sometimes like, you know, I, I could give funnier examples, like sweat onstage, because I wear something too heavy or like do whatever, you know, that’s just who I am. Like, I can’t pretend that I’m always going to be some level of perfection that everyone’s going to love. I can also be a human, and then people can find more of that relatability.

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Authentic Leadership Prepares You for Crisis

Jenn DeWall:

Let’s talk about how do you build a solid foundation? Like how do you start to really know who you are? I know that’s one of the things that we talked about in the call was you gave the example of the house. So how can you start to find out who you are as an organization, a team or a leader?

Zach Giglio:

Yeah. And, and just to your, just one quick point about, you know, you being true to who you are. I think I think you can’t be everything to everybody, but I also think by you being authentic, the way that you are, you actually providing a service to people because you’re allowing them to make a choice about you and about what you do. So like by being who you are in this podcast, you’re allowing people to make a quick and real choice about, is this podcast for me or not, is Jenn for me or not? Is Zach for me or not? Like that’s a service to people because we’re all very busy, and we are all tired of getting tricked and getting networked on and all that stuff. Right? Like if I want to use the heck of that, just give me the option to make a choice.

Just like, that’s all I want. Like I’m a human being, respect me, give me the option to make a choice. And by you being as authentic as you are, there’s something that I try to be like, I think like, quite honestly, like my biggest struggle was trying to be too many things, too many people. It’s something I’m really working on, but I know that it’s worth working on because that is like the ultimate service to other people is like allowing them to make a choice. And, and not only that, I mean, what did we talk about now is like, you’re, you’re building this foundation that you can alter, you can pivot, you can respond from a crisis because your foundation is set and you know who you are. So I just wanted to bring that point up before we get into the. I think it’s amazing. I think I think everybody should aspire to be that way.

Jenn DeWall:

Well, and I think, you know, I know we went on a tangent, but that is something I will say, even within the world of coaching, I’m a coach. This is what I always say because I am not a seller. I’m just not. That’s just not my jam in terms of deliberately selling to people. Because I think when you’re are trying to network on someone, then you’re not giving them a choice. You’re kind of trying to push them into a corner of saying, pick me or, you know, pick me. And so I think one of the expressions I like to say is like finding a coach is like finding a pair of jeans. You have to try on a few to find the one that’s going to help you best flaunt your assets. Like, I’m not going to give you the hard sell because coaching itself as a service is very intimate. There’s a lot of trust that needs to be there. And if you can’t connect in that way, that’s okay. There is absolutely someone else there that you are going to connect with, but I never want to become, and this is my other closing phrase. I’m like, I never want to be your gym membership. You have got to choose me. I am not this person. That’s really great. And then all of a sudden, you’re like, well, I signed up, do I get all the rewards? No! You always have a choice, but you have to work on it. Oh my gosh. I just, I love talking with you in this perspective, in the world where there is so much of a brand and that content-heavy, pushy experience that I think is still, you know, has a lot of room of opportunity of how do we actually give people a choice instead of kind of like forcing them into a corner to either like us, you know, maybe the choice is like us or hate us, but feeling like the only option is to like you. And if they don’t like you, how much money are you going to spend, trying to make one person like you, or the next person like you and you don’t know who you are, and that’s sorry, that was my tangent.

Zach Giglio:

That’s great. But you know, I, I honestly, like, I feel like we’ve just been told for so long and conditioned to think that we have to sell our products and services. That’s what people buy, but I know that that’s not the case. And it sounds like you know that too. Like, it’s like you walk into a thing. Hey, what do you do? Or what’s your mission statement? What’s your elevator pitch. It’s like what I do and my mission in my life, that’s important. But like, if you only know that, you know, nothing, you know, nothing that you need to know to make a real decision, particularly with coaching, but like, we’ve talked about like this trust and like us, you know, we have large clients in long contracts. Like we don’t, we’re not selling, you know, a, a coffee mug, right. And even could even bet this applies, but like we, we’re not doing a quick transaction where we were. What we’re talking about is building the long, sustainable, trustworthy relationship that is truly better than the sum of its parts. And that requires trust. That requires an understanding of who each other are. But like, you still walk into all these things like, Hey, what do you do? And I’m like, and this is not, we’re not gonna, we’re not gonna accomplish anything. Like, you know, and now like, I’ve, I’ve gotten, you know, I’m at least not comfortable enough to the point where like I just took the conversation to a whole different direction and if they want to stick around great. But if they don’t like it, great, good for you. Like you are again, trying to give them that choice.

Building a Solid Foundation to Prepare for Crisis

Zach Giglio:

But you know, going back to this foundation, like, so your, your identity as an organization or as a leader like that is your foundation is not to say, like, if you think about a house, your foundation doesn’t change like your foundation is very, very strong. It’s built solid. And on top of your foundation, you can build your house. But once you build your house, you can renovate it. You can add to it. You can change the rooms, and you can change the floors, you can do all that stuff because you have a solid foundation, like sure, it’s going to take time and effort to make those changes. And you should do it in a way that it’s smart and logical and makes sense for the whole thing. But like, your foundation is solid. So like you can do that. Rather if you have a rocky foundation, every time you try to make a change on your house like you need to also service that foundation. And now you’re in trouble, and you’re spending a lot more time, a lot more effort trying to make any type of alteration or change. But how about a crisis?

You have your foundation, and the storm comes, knocks your house down while your foundation is still there. So you just rebuild back on top of your foundation because your foundation doesn’t change. Your house does, the look of it may be, but your foundation does. And that’s how we think about your identity as the foundation of your organization, as a foundation of you as a leader. But how do you understand what your, what your identity is? And so I talked a little bit about how we’re hardwired because of years of like this thing, and like, what’s your why and all this stuff, like it all sounds good, but like, it’s not real. And we’re hardwired to talk and behave in this way. And so when we do these workshops with organizations or with, or, or the thought leaders that will help create platforms and stuff for them, we have to like actively intervene in their brain with an exercise, to separate their identity from what they do. Because we do want to build what they do back on top of their identity, but to understand who you are, that needs to be separated.

So here’s something that anybody can do. So if you’re, if you’re an organization or if you are you’re, you are not an organization, but if you are one person within an organization. Or if you’re a leader, you have to imagine yourself- flip a switch. You need to imagine yourself as in a completely different profession, or if you’re an organization in a completely different industry. So, for instance, if we were doing this with a t-shirt producer, they make, they make t-shirts really quotations, whatever we would now make them like a psychiatrist or like a counseling center, like something completely like, so we put the switch. Now, this is what you do. And this is who you are. You need to tell me why anybody would come in and want to work with you, buy from you, trust you?

Jenn DeWall:

Why would they? I just made a shirt?

Your Identity Is Not the Same as Your Profession, Product or Services

Zach Giglio:

But that’s the perfect response because like, that’s so like, so, I mean, we literally just a couple of weeks ago, we did this with this like consulting company, and we made them a bakeshop. So you’re a bakery now. And at first, they were like, no flip the switch. And they started saying about what that’s like, no, no, no, no, no. You’re now a bakeshop. Why, why is anybody going to come in? And they started talking about how they would reinvent the chocolate chip cookie. And how they would- rather than somebody walking in and being like I want a chocolate chip cookie, they would say but, do you? Tell me what you are seeking from this chocolate chip cookie? And they would think out this whole thing. And they’re like, so what we would rather do is get to know this person and what they truly want or what they’re after, and then design a cookie. Now it might be your choice, but we’re going to design a cookie that is going to exceed what they ever thought they were going to get when they walk into this bakeshop. And I was like, there it is. That’s your identity. That’s who you are. It has nothing to do with your profession or anything you do. So they were talking about relationships. It’s about trust. It’s about being innovative, reinventing things, like also not accepting the status quo, like that’s who they are as an organization. When I, when I’m on like pitch calls, like getting to know people, I said like, we, if we were a landscaping company, we’d be the same company. We would just be cutting your lawn. Like everything about us would be the same. We would just be providing a different service. And, and it’s, it’s again, it’s a way to intentionally intervene in the hard wiring to separate who we are from what our actions are.

Jenn DeWall:

Yes. And I love, I, you know, I think that’s a great example of an exercise that you could do is see yourself in a different perspective. What are you trying to achieve? You know, that connection. If I think about the cookie shop, you know, I think about replicating this nostalgia or this experience of love and support. Like, I feel like I’m safe when I’m there, right? It’s just from the, maybe the aromas or just the conversations and how people see me and greet me when I walk in. I love that it’s getting people to really think at a much more meaningful level. Obviously, that’s your goal. We’re forging human connections, but too many people, I think, forget about the human connection piece. You’re just like, what do you mean? Don’t they like this? They can’t see all the great ways you haven’t given me an opportunity to even embrace or interact with it, to actually see how I could like it and why I would want it.

Zach Giglio:

But that’s an amazing point about what your bakeshop would be like. It would be, you know, what someones could be. It could be about comfort. It could be, had nothing to do with actually with the cookies or whatever. It could just be about the experience, the feeling of relaxation. Ooh, there you are. Actually, you are right like that, that will review not what is in your mission statement? What is your elevator pitch? And then, like, I get the function of an elevator pitch. Like I get it like it is forcing you to nail down the core of your service and why you think it benefits somebody else. Like that is extremely useful, but it should not be in place of understanding who you are and the human connection. Like that is only like, well, down the road, you can, your purpose. People are like, well, what should we do about this? What should we say about that? It’s like, well, does this have anything to do with who you are as an organization or as a leader? Oh, it does. Well, how does it do that? Well, then that’s what you say. Not like purpose finding where it’s like, well, we need to have a purpose. Everybody’s got one. I need to have one. Like, and so what’s trending right now. Like in, you’ll get in trouble, you’ll get in trouble by doing that.

Jenn DeWall:

I think it’s, you know, the elevator pitch is important too. Again, going back to the brand because I think there are, we all know that we’re in a networking situation or maybe just meeting new coworkers for the first time. And we can tell when someone is just giving us their pitch versus actually like whether or not they care about us. And there are a lot of people that have spent a lot of time maybe crafting these compelling elevator pitches. And so then I know of those networking meetings, like, oh, mine doesn’t sound like that. Absolutely not. Because I just haven’t thought about it in that way. And I also still feel uncomfortable with like that, just that pushing, like, I want you to see me in this like aspirational, amazing light. Right. Cause I think there’s a level of when it’s so rehearsed, you miss the fact of like we’re humans, and no one really cares about how pretty you said that. I feel like it’s more of that billboard that you’ll forget about when you drive by. And you’re like, oh, that was a really cool billboard. But like, I don’t, you know, I’m not going to buy the service, but that was cool when I saw it.

Zach Giglio:

Yeah. One hundred percent. I, a hundred percent, agree with that. Like somebody that’s going to go ask me what, like, they literally said the words, what is your, what is your elevator pitch? Like, I don’t have one. I don’t have one. And I’m like, I’m not going. Like, I just don’t have, like, this is not something that I work for or where are a communications agency. And we do not, we purposely do not have an elevator pitch, and we have great, and we have great clients, and we’re growing, and everything’s working out well. Like we don’t have an elevator pitch. I’ve never, I’ve never heard of a good organization or good leader not getting where they want to be because they don’t have a strong elevator pitch. Again, there’s a function for an elevator pitch. That is a wonderful tool to help you like simplify what you’re doing. Because I also believe like the more you define something, the less you actually define it. Right? Like, so you need to actually be poignant with your language and, like, say what you mean. So I, I liked that function, but it, it it’s, it should not be misunderstood. I think that if any representation of who I am or what my business is that elevate if it is, it’s just not.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. And I think it’s important. It’s an important distinction, and yeah, there’s absolutely a place and a need for elevator pitches that I feel like it does so much more for us as an individual to step into our value and see what we’re trying to accomplish. But you know, the more that we make it again about us, the last that we might be actually seeing that person. So one last thing that I want to talk about because I know that we’re going a bit over, but like, how do you rebuild trust when it’s broken? So like one important thing you had said is that we have to obviously know like our values, who we are and what makes us tick. What if we do it wrong, Zach? What happens? Like how do we rebuild it once it’s broken? I know you gave us the three steps. Like, would that be kind of, the prescription is like, you have to first like, own it. Talk about what you’re going to do now. And then talk about how you’re going to move forward into the future. Or is there something else you would add to that too?

Communicating in a Crisis – Own It, Explain What Happens Now, and What Happens Next

Zach Giglio:

So I think, I think that is like I said before, I think those things are like, that’s the technique. But the underlying foundation really should be a strong understanding of who you are. So it’s like, not even like I lied, so something’s simple like I lied to YOU, and I’ve lost your trust. And now I want to rebuild it with you. I need to understand a little bit deeper. Like I can just go to like, I’m sorry, I lied. I am going to double-check what I say before I say it to make sure it’s not a lie, and going forward, I’m going to go to counseling, so I can stop lying so much. Like if I said that to you, you’d be like, okay, I can’t, you know, like it has to be way more meaningful than that. Like I would have to say to you like, look, this is I, I messed up. Like, this is why I lied. This is what I was trying to get at. This is why I know it impacted you more than perhaps another lie. That’s like an understanding of who I am. Like that’s trying to get through a little bit more deeply.

So just to say quickly, because there are people right now who are in this situation and, and we all get in these situations. If you have built, whether you’re an organization or a leader, if you build meaningful relationships based on human connection and your identity, you will have a lot more for forgiving in your world and your network that matters than you will if you’ve only ever had a transactional based relationship. So if you’re like, if you’re just, transaction-based like, there would be very little forgiveness, but if you’re, if you’re on the human level, like you said, like, and you get to know the person who to trust the person when you’re waiting as I can think of mistakes. And like the people that I think are the most important than the world that I’ve lost their trust or

Jenn DeWall:

Oh yeah, think of it like, even as a human being, I know that in my twenties, I had what I would call not nice responses. I was a high over-achiever somehow expected that everyone would perform in a certain way that I did it. Like, I’ll put it that way. There are other leaders like that. Like if you do that and you are not kind in your communications, or you’re condescending, right. That’s one that we can all relate to. Like, what do you do when you’re condescending? And you can sense that people are like, you know, that’s, I’ll give you that example. Cause I’ve been that person. I hope that I’m not today. I hope that people can say that because I try really hard to see that person, but I know that I’ve been there.

Zach Giglio:

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it gets a real thing, but as these people know me as a human, they know me, they know me, and they’re willing to, they were willing to forgive it. I mean, if I think about like, so like our, so we have one of our bigger clients. Like we, we love them. And I think that they really appreciate us as humans. Like we got on the phone, we talked to them about life. Like, you know, we’re not, it’s just, it’s not transaction-based. We do certainly do transactions, but like, it’s not what our relationship is based on. And last, last month we had a really big deliverable that I had only found out, and this was partly my fault, I mismanaged it. The day before that, we weren’t going to be able to deliver it the day that we were supposed to deliver it. This massive mistake. And they forgave us almost immediately. And we’re like, okay, this isn’t great. But like this new date works for us. And I told them why? I said this is what the mistake was. This is what we’re doing. I’m going to make sure it doesn’t happen again because this is what we’re bringing in, and blah, blah, blah. And it was all real and genuine where I owned what the mistake was. And they almost immediately forgave us, and they appreciated it because we already have that relationship with them. They already know us for who we are now.

Gosh, some people might be saying, okay, well, I have never operated an identity-based organization, or I never operated as an identity-based leader before, what do I do? Well, something that I’ve learned in counseling, which is a really wonderful, like, like superpower tool, is there will always be situations where we do not act the way we wish we did. But that doesn’t mean going forward. That that is the only way, we’ll ever act again. And so there’s no time except now for you to decide that I need to understand who I am so I can better operate in situations the way that I want to understand that I will make a mistake one time, but I need to start setting this foundation so that when this happens again, I’m in a much better position than I am right now.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. And I think the last one that I even hear from that from leaders, like when you can practice vulnerability, when you can own your mistakes, when you can also share what you’re doing, people are so much more flexible with allowing you to be human because you’re also saying I make mistakes. So then you’re telling them, I know that you will, you’re a human being as well, but this is how I want you to show up when we make a mistake so that we can figure out what to do. And I think there’s so much power there because people might be guided by, like, well, what happens if I make a mistake? Oh my gosh, I don’t want to make a mistake. You know, a lot of people talk about imposter syndrome- being found out. Own it. Like it’s, it’s, you know, it’s so simple.

If you want to rebuild trust, if you want to do that, show them that you’re human. Especially if you’re a leader, like the less than you can express that side, or you pretend that you don’t make these mistakes. The more that people are, like, I don’t want to work here because I feel like I have to burn the midnight oil just to try and be perfect. And it’s not sustainable. So I’m burned out. Or two, like, I don’t know if I trust that you support me as just an individual that is, has flaws will make mistakes. All right. Breathing, which means that we’re, we’re going to make a misstep somehow. And even though we’ll try so hard, but all you have to do is own it, just own it. I mean, so many times I like it, and then it becomes comical when a leader doesn’t own it. I feel like that then goes into the meeting after the meeting where they’re like, yeah, did you see how they didn’t actually own that at all? That was really awkward because we all know what’s going on, but then they didn’t own it. And it’s just kind of becomes a, well, what do we do with that?

We Can Learn More From Failure Than Success

Zach Giglio:

It’s really like, and it’s really like the truest thing. It’s like the truest advice you could ever give someone, what you just said. Like, own who you are. Own it. And piggybacking on that, it’s like, it’s so easy to lead people when things are going well. And it’s really easy to lead people when things are going well for you, personally. It’s easy. You’re like a superstar, you’re a rockstar, and I’m the boss, blah, blah, blah. But the best moments for leadership and learning or the challenges like it’s so cliché, but like, there’s so much more to be learned in failure than there is in success. And to your point, it is really a strong example of showing people how to behave and how to show up or how to respond the time that is the hardest to show up and respond. And you’re like, and there are no more valuable lessons to teach somebody than that.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh, Zach, I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. I know I want to ask the final question, which is how they can get in touch with you? But before I do that, do you feel like there’s anything else that maybe I’ve missed in terms of what you wanted to share about managing a crisis?

Zach Giglio:

No. I think we covered it. I also shudder because I feel like we could go on and on, and I’ve really enjoyed the conversation. I love where you take the conversation. I really think you have such an interesting insight and curiosity about these topics. And I love talking about this stuff, but there are not enough people out there who see the world the way you see it. And so I really appreciate the conversation. I think I think you’ve kind of nailed it. You’ve put a fine point on it. Like own it, fix it, fix what you should be fixing. Don’t fix what you shouldn’t be. Apologize when you should be apologizing. Do not apologize because you think it’s the right thing to do. And you don’t feel it in your heart. And you haven’t if you haven’t operated on your identity now, like, just start now, because way down the road, you’ll be in a better situation. Yeah.

Jenn DeWall:

Zach, right back at you, I’ve loved our conversation, loved our pre-call. And I just love what you’re doing to help people again, have more of those human-centered connections, the work with GCM. I think it’s so important. And I guess I just see that in a world where we want to be seen and heard more than ever. It’s just so important that we forge those genuine connections. Zach, how do people get in touch with GCM? How can they connect with you?

Where to Find Zach Giglio

Zach Giglio:

Yeah. I appreciate that. So it’s whoisgcm.com. We’re constantly asking ourselves, who are we? Because we w we don’t want to forget that that’s the most important thing. So our website, whoisgcm.com, and I’m on LinkedIn, it’s like, it’s, I think it’s like linkedin.com/in/zachgigliopr/ and quite responsive, particularly if you’re reaching out saying like, Hey, just want to get to know. You want to learn a little bit about yourself. You will get a response.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. I love that. Zach, thank you so much for just taking your time to sit down with me today to share with our audience how they can recover from a crisis. I’ve really, I genuinely have loved our conversation, and I, I truly hope people have found value, or at least maybe permission to just show up a little bit more authentically. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Zach Giglio:

Thank you, Jenn.

Jenn DeWall:

You so much for tuning into this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. If you enjoyed the conversation with Zach or, you know, someone that could benefit from how to recover from a crisis, share this podcast episode with them. You can find him at whoisgcm.com, and you can also connect with him on LinkedIn. If you’re looking to develop your leadership skills, or you want your team to up that level, reach out to us, head on over to Crestcom.com. There you can sign up for a two-hour complimentary leadership skills workshop. We will come in and help you and your team come together to produce great results.