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In this episode, our host, Jenn DeWall speaks with Dr. Tyrone Holmes, a professional speaker, consultant, and author. Dr. Holmes teaches about diversity and inclusion and how to connect with others to reduce unconscious bias.
Full Transcript Below
Jenn DeWall:
Hi everyone. It is Jenn DeWall, and I am so excited to interview Dr. Tyrone Holmes. Tyrone, thank you so much for joining us today on The Leadership Habit. We are so happy to have you.
Tyrone Holmes:
It is my great pleasure. Thank you for having me.
What is “Diversity and Inclusion”?
Jenn DeWall:
So today we’re going to, we’re going to talk about the topic of diversity and inclusion, right? This is something that I think we see more and more in the news. We know that it’s an area of importance, but for those people that may not be familiar with diversity and inclusion, they may be outside of our space of where we live and play. How do you describe what diversity and inclusion is, Tyrone?
Tyrone Holmes:
That’s a great question. And if you ask different quote-unquote diversity experts, they might give you some different answers. But I want to focus on one that’s grounded in our ability to connect with each other as human beings. And when I think of diversity, I think of it in a broad way. I think of the ways that we can be different, and we can be different in a lot of ways. We can be different based on a position we hold in an organization. We can be different based on our hierarchy in that organization. We could be different based on our race. We can be different based on our gender. We can be different based on our age. We can be different based on our socioeconomic status. We can be different based on our physical appearance or physical characteristics. We can be different based on physical abilities or disabilities.
And when I think about diversity, I think about creating opportunities for people with those differences to come together in ways that will allow the individual and the organization to be successful and allow people to be effective in what it is that they’re doing. Whatever it may be, it may be that they’re doing in their jobs. And so I didn’t think of diversity inclusion as steps that we take that create opportunities for people who are both culturally similar as well as those who are culturally different. To connect with one another, to build powerful relationships, to build powerful connections, to engage each other in ways that will be of benefit to both the people as well as the organization, and to do anything we can to create the situation and circumstances that will allow that to happen.
Jenn DeWall:
That’s, I love the purpose of diversity inclusion to connect and to unite people. And to have them come together to be able to maybe seek to understand, seek to learn, seek to connect, and just see each other despite our differences. Why does diversity and inclusion matter for an organization? Why does it matter to have diversity? I know that that sounds like probably a silly question. It seems obvious, but why does it matter?
Diversity is a Competitive Advantage
Tyrone Holmes:
The first thing I would say Is that diversity isn’t necessarily a goal, but it’s there already. In most organizations, particularly if you think about diversity in a broad way. Looking at some of the dimensions that I mentioned a moment ago, the reality is is that we have diverse organizations. We have organizations that have different genders and have people of different sexual orientations that have people of different races and ethnicities and religions and political affiliations and things of that nature. And we’re already diverse. The potential problem is we don’t always engage each other as effectively as possible. We don’t always connect as effectively as possible. We don’t always interact as effectively as possible. And diversity and inclusion become important for at least one reason. That reason being that we need to create the opportunities that people, or we need to create opportunities for people to engage each other and to interact with each other and to connect with each other and to operate effectively in teams and workgroups in ways that allow them to be successful and live in ways that allow them to do their work efficiently, to do it effectively, to allow teams to work together efficiently and effectively.
And when we do that, when we facilitate the circumstances that allow that diversity that is always already inherent in our organization to come together effectively, the organization is going to function more effectively, and it’s going to gonna operate with a higher level of efficiency and productivity. And so there are a number of reasons that, that we can talk about in terms of why diversity and inclusion and why do we, what I have a focus on it. But I really like to emphasize because we’re already diverse and because we need to make sure we utilize that diversity in ways that are going to be a benefit and that we get a competitive advantage out of that diversity that we already have. That’s inherent to our organizations.
Jenn DeWall:
Competitive advantage.
Tyrone Holmes:
Yes.
Jenn DeWall:
And there’s also– I’ve heard people talk about it, you know, not only the competitive advantage of diversity and having different experiences in different individuals come together and the benefits you can see in terms of innovation, idea generation and, but sometimes, you know, some of the things that I’ve been reading is that diversity and inclusion when we work for an organization that we feel really accepts us for who we are, values us for who we are. There are tremendous benefits to how we feel in terms of our own psychological safety and just feeling like we’re in a place where people understand they’re sensitive to the differences that we have, and they appreciate respect and allow us to be who we are. And so, you know, there’s that beautiful benefit to the bottom line, but then there’s this also amazing benefit to that individual. And then I think people may forget that if you may not necessarily feel that you’re diverse or you may feel that you are diverse, it’s that sometimes we just aren’t bridging the gap to talk about the things that impact each of us. And we need to start those conversations. We need to have that openness in the workforce. Am I going too soft with diversity and inclusion?
Connecting Through Our Differences
Tyrone Holmes:
No. No, not at all. And you’re absolutely right, and I’m going to give you an example. One of the things that I emphasize when I do the work that I do- be it facilitating a workshop or just having a conversation with people as I emphasize the fact that in any given situation, we have far more in common than we have that are different. And I actually have an activity that I do in some of my workshops called 90-second introductions, and I’ll tell real quickly how it works. What I do is I break the group in half, and I have half the people stand on one side of the room. The other half stand on the other side of the room. And what I tell them to do is I say find an individual that either you don’t know at all or you don’t know very well and pair up with that person when everybody’s in a pair, I asked him a question. I say, for the next 90 seconds, what I want you to do is I want you to talk about the things that you have in common. Talk about your similarities. I give 90 seconds to do that. Then when they’re finished, I say, okay, for the next 90 seconds, I want you to talk about your differences, talk about the things that are different.
Tyrone Holmes:
And when they’re done that I have everybody sit back down and I ask them a single question, and that is what did you learn? And the number one response that I’ve gotten from people over the years doing this, and I’ve done it dozens of times, is that we had far more in common than I realized I would have ever realized ours. So we have more similarities and differences. It was harder to identify and talk about the differences because we had a lot more in common. And it’s along that theme. And what I’ve learned over that time and I think he has become somewhat evident is that the reality, whether we realize it or not, is that we always have more in common than we have.
That is different in that a big part of what we ought to do and try to be doing in our organizations and communities is using those similarities to build a bridge across the differences and using those similarities for us to build a connection and to make a connection. And once we make that connection, once we create opportunities for people to interact with those they don’t normally interact with, once we create opportunities for people to learn more about those they don’t normally have a chance to learn about. Once they make that connection, once they maybe get out of their comfort zone a little bit and start interacting with individuals that they haven’t had a chance to interact with, they come to the realization of this person’s a lot like me. We have a lot in common, and we can interact and engage with each other and be very, very successful together.
And so that’s a big part. That’s a big thing when it comes to this whole conversation about diversity, and collusion is that yes, we have differences. There are things that make us different, and those things can be extremely valuable because those differences can be utilized in ways that allow us to be more successful in terms of the work we’re trying to accomplish. But we have so many things that we have in common that we can use to build that bridge and connect with one another and to create environments like you were saying, where people feel secure and where people feel good about themselves and good about the work they’re doing and people feel good about their opportunity to engage in, engage their coworkers and engage the leadership and engage other individuals in the organization to get their work done. And so that’s a big part. Creating opportunities for people to do that is really what diversity inclusion is all about.
What Holds Us Back From Diversity and Inclusion?
Jenn DeWall:
And if you want to be a successful organization, that should be a primary focus is to offer that foundation or that platform for people to connect. You want them to collaborate; you want them to understand how each other, you know, works, operates so then they can work better together. Absolutely. What do you think holds people back, or what challenges come up for organizations in creating a diverse and inclusive culture?
Tyrone Holmes:
Actually, great question and the question about holding people back. I’m going to go right back to that 92nd introductions activity before we do that activity. What holds people back is so many people think of our differences as being greater than our similarities and so many people think of themselves in terms of maybe not having as much in common with a person who might be culturally different than they really do have in common, but they don’t realize it. They haven’t had that opportunity to connect. They haven’t had that opportunity to interact, and that’s why I say that one of the things that can be a great benefit in any organization or any community is to provide people with opportunities to interact with those they don’t normally have a chance to interact with and learn more about those they don’t normally have a chance to learn about.
And the failure to do that. The lack of doing that is what often holds us back. Now to be a little bit more specific, what we’re talking about is this thing called affinity bias, and affinity bias by definition is a natural human tendency to gravitate toward those we perceive to be most like ourselves and therefore away from those we perceive to be less like ourselves and because we do that- and human beings do that all the time- because of that, it sometimes limits our interaction because if we see person A, B, and C as people who are similar to ourselves, we’re going to try to hang out with and interact with persons A, B, and C and maybe person’s D and E We think of as maybe not being so much similar to ourselves, so we’re probably not going to take outward steps to connect with them. At least some people may not take out what steps to connect with them, but the reality is if that person took those outward steps to connect with persons are people D and E, guess what happens?
They realize they have more in common. They realize that there are more similarities than differences, and they can utilize those similarities to begin to build those bridges. And so coming back to this whole notion of diversity and inclusion, diversity and inclusion by way of an example should be us doing a better job of helping that person who is comfortable connecting with people A, B and C to connect with those people D and A. And when we create those connections, when we create those opportunities to build relationships, all of a sudden people are interacting with each other much more effectively.
Jenn DeWall:
They’re likely happier, more productive people.
Tyrone Holmes:
Absolutely.
Jenn DeWall:
And you know, you have this broadened perspective. It’s, it’s amazing what we can actually learn from each other. So for those that may not understand what affinity bias is, could it even be something like for my undergrad, I went to the University of Wisconsin Madison and so I’m a huge Badger fan. Could it even just be me trying to seek out fellow Badger fans that much, the same university and just say like, Hey, those people are the most like me. And so I know we’re going to get along great!
How Does Affinity Bias Harm Us?
Tyrone Holmes:
Absolutely. That’s a good example of affinity bias, and I want to make this point cause I think it’s important. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. There’s nothing wrong with trying to create a safe space yourself. There’s nothing wrong with trying to connect with people you see as being similar to yourself, but now let’s take it back to the organization, and the question I ask people when I facilitate workshops on this topic is what happens when that affinity bias manifests itself in the workplace? What happens, for example, when it manifests itself in the recruitment process, what happens when it manifests itself in the interviewing process? What happens when it manifests itself in the selection process? What happens when it manifests itself with the person who decides who gets promoted? The reality is that they will often fall back on that affinity bias, and they’ll often focus on recruiting and interviewing and then ultimately selecting people who are, they’re comfortable with, who they perceive as being relatively similar as, as opposed to people who are significantly different.
Going back a minute to the example, I gave you a person’s A, B, and C being someone you feel you can connect with, and then D and D maybe not being so easily connected with. In those cases, when we’re talking about recruitment, we’re talking about interview interviewing, we’re talking about the selection. You might be more likely to hire persons A, B and C than you would person’s D and E because of the affinity bias. So there is fundamentally nothing wrong with people seeking comfort-seeking a safe space seeking that similarity and familiarity, which is really what’s manifest and affinity by in affinity bias, the problem becomes how does that manifest itself in the workplace when it comes to getting the work done in making decision makings for example, around employment.
Jenn DeWall:
Okay. That’s, I mean, I love that example. I used to work with an organization, and we are a very large organization, but the feedback that I would always get from my friends and my husband when they would see us out, or you know, see my coworkers and myself is they’ll be like, you all look the same. You look exactly the same. I can pinpoint who works at your organization and who doesn’t, and that’s likely a strong example of affinity bias. And I never realized that until I got that feedback of how much alike it was to the point that I could then see people, you know, I could understand if we saw interns coming in, I would be able to not even know them. Not even having an impact on whether they get picked, but I could probably guess who would get hired just based on everything that I noticed.
Jenn DeWall:
And when you take that step back and really look at that, you’re forced to ask yourself, how strong are your decisions if everyone is essentially in some way operating out of a similar brain. How innovative are you if you’re doing that? I think in the beginning, yeah, it’s like a safe space. We all connect; we share a lot of the same similarities. But when we really think about driving business and we think about the processes that we’re putting into place, how we’re managing our organizational culture, well, there’s a huge detriment for us to all be the same.
Tyrone Holmes:
Absolutely. And I think you used a good example. I’ll give you a slightly different way of looking at it. Think about when affinity bias manifests itself in the recruitment selection process or even the recruitment process. Think about the large candidate pool of potential individuals who can come into your organization that is ultimately not even considered because they’re not part of that group of individuals that you necessarily feel comfortable with and a lot of organizations have processes that they utilize to bring people into the organization or at least be considered to come into the organization that can be somewhat exclusive because of that. That can be limiting in terms of who you’re going to consider for positions within the organization, and part of diversity and inclusion is simply asking the question, can we expand our candidate pools?
A Diverse Workforce is Good for the Bottom-Line
Tyrone Holmes:
Can we expand that group of individuals that you’re considering that you think might be a good fit or think might make a significant contribution to the organization? And the answer is almost always yes we can. There are other things that we could be doing to take a look at individuals who are going to be highly qualified and might bring some different perspectives and some different experiences and some different backgrounds that might make the problem-solving process operate more effectively. It might make decisions that flow from that problem-solving process ultimately be more effective decisions. And so that’s yet another example of how diversity and inclusion can be very, very effective at making organizations more effective ultimately and basically get some better bottom-line results.
Jenn DeWall:
What do leaders do to, you know, be able to broaden their perspective in the interviewing and recruiting process? I know that’s not what we necessarily plan on talking about today, but you know what? What can you do if you’re a leader, and you’re now having this aha moment in your car like, “Hey, maybe I do suffer from affinity bias,” which is normal. Like you said, it’s something that many of us have. It’s a natural thing to have, but we have to be aware of it because it can impact the quality of our decisions, the quality of our problem-solving. What can you do as a leader to broaden your own ability to see candidates, to see people, and to truly like create a more diverse team through your interviewing and recruitment process?
Tyrone Holmes:
There are a variety of things you can do. We probably won’t have time to go into all the different aspects of diversity recruiting, and one of the things that I have done with a number of clients is talk about how do we go about recruiting and retaining a high-quality culture, diverse workforce. But here’s the first step, and I always emphasize this as the first step, and I challenge organizations to answer this question. That is- if you see yourself as being relatively mono-cultural as we were discussing where everybody looks alike, and you’re basically from a fairly narrow range of individuals, bringing people into the organization, then ask yourself this question, and that is why would people outside of that mono-cultural group, why would they want to work for this organization? Why might they be interested in this organization? Or perhaps you reframe the question, though, would they be interested in working for this organization?
Tyrone Holmes:
And I think that’s the first step because one of the things that I think we have to understand when it comes to any type of recruitment and particularly diversity recruitment and trying to recruit and retain a high quality culturally diverse workforce, it starts with us. It starts with what do we have to offer? Do we have something of great value to offer to a high-quality, culturally diverse candidate pool? And so that’s the first step. The second step is to start taking a look at what you are doing to bring people into the organization now. So, for instance, some organizations use employee referral programs, and what they’re doing is they’re actually rewarding employees who are already working for the organization for bringing in a successful candidate. And that’s fine, but that’s also how an affinity bias will significantly manifest itself. So are there some other things that you can do?
Are you going to colleges to recruit? Are there some more diverse colleges that you can go to recruit at? For example, historically black colleges and universities or colleges and universities that have high Latino populations and things of that nature are often possibilities in terms of doing college recruiting. When you take a look at utilizing online resources, are we utilizing online resources that cater to a diverse array of individuals that I’m talking about. Again, diversity, in a broad way, could be diversity based on gender. It can be raised based on race or ethnicity. It can be based on age; it can be based on particular skillsets. That’s another thing to consider. Another big one that a lot of organizations find success is taking a look at professional associations that cater to specific cultural groups. So, for example, I’m just picking this right off the top of my head.
A particular professional association that might cater to women leaders in sales. Maybe that’s what they focus on as women in leadership who are sales focused. If you need to hire salespeople for your organization and you want to increase the gender diversity in your organization, that might be a professional association you want to build some interaction with and start identifying individuals from that professional association that might be a good fit for your organization. So those are, those are just a few, but really it requires, if we can kind of summarize this element, two things that I always encourage people to think about. One, start by looking within, are we an organization that will really cater effectively and create environments that will serve effectively a diverse array of people? And if not, then the first step in the process might be to identify what do we need to do differently?
And then the second step is what do we need to do differently in terms of how we’re reaching out and connecting with different candidate pools? Are there ways of actually making sure we connect with more diverse candidate pools that have the people that have the qualifications and have the experience that we’re looking for? And the answer is almost always yes; you can do that.
Making Diversity a Competitive Advantage
Jenn DeWall:
I love that you gave our listeners just a lot of things to consider and a lot of great tips on how they can start to think about this differently. Thank you so much for sharing that. I know that I went on a little bit of a tangent, but you know you have to go where the wind takes you, but I do want to talk about your book, which is Making Diversity a Competitive Advantage. And if you could for our listeners, just tell us a little bit about what your book is about, and I know that we’re going to go through and talk about some of the ways that we can improve communication. And this is communication, I believe, and how you wrote it within our organizations, within our friendships, within the new people that we meet. But how can we truly work together, change our communication styles so we can truly make diversity a competitive advantage? So what was your inspiration for that book?
Tyrone Holmes:
Actually, I love the question because it really gets at why I do this work, and I’ll take a step back just in terms of why I do this work. And that is, and I’m not telling you or any of your listeners what they don’t already know, but we live in a society where we do not always get along very effectively across our cultural differences. We have a lot of issues when it comes to interpersonal interaction, interpersonal communication. We have issues in instances of workplace incivility. Quite a few of them that can include things like bullying that can include things like insults and things such as nasty emails and tweets and all that kind of stuff. We live in a society where we can and should be getting along much more effectively with one another. Now, the reality is that we’re not always going to agree, and that’s okay.
Tyrone Holmes:
We’re not always going to get along in terms of I want to hang out with you, and you want to hang out with me. That’s perfectly okay too, but we should be able to do that without being mean to one another. We should be able to do that without being hurtful to one another. We should be able to do that without being destructive to one another. Yeah. We live in a society that increasingly that’s exactly what we’re doing. And we’re increasingly looking at people who are not in agreement with us, who are not part of our group or part of our tribe, quote-unquote, as being the enemy and as being someone that should be destroyed or someone that has to be torn down or someone that has to be cast aside so to speak. And my work for a while and for the rest of my life is going to be what can we do to start tamping that down to start helping people realize that it’s perfectly okay if we don’t get along.
Tyrone Holmes:
It’s perfectly okay if we don’t agree when we can do so in ways that are not disagreeable. We can do so in ways that can be perhaps enlightening to one another. And so maybe we never agree, but at least he better understand where each other are coming from. And we can just agree to disagree and still connect when we have to within the workplace or within the community. And in a peaceful and charitable manner. And I don’t always see that. I mean, we see it sometimes. It’s not like everybody’s at each throat all the time. But the reality is that we see negative outcomes and displays of behavior far more than I think we should. And so that was my long-winded way of saying that I wrote this book as just one step in the process of helping people develop the skills, develop the knowledge, develop the understanding, developing the self-awareness necessary to connect across cultural differences more effectively, to communicate more effectively, to build more powerful relationships, to build more effective connections, to reduce conflict or at least reduce the likelihood of conflict. And even if a conflict occurs and there’s going to always be conflict.
Jenn DeWall:
Always conflict. That’s one thing that’s for certain.
Tyrone Holmes:
It’s got to be, it’s going to happen, but maybe we can deal with it a little bit more effectively. And so that was the purpose of the book is to give people a relatively short, easy to read, highly informational piece of information or tool is probably a better word. That’s going to help them identify a tip, a tidbit, a resource that they can utilize to connect more effectively, to communicate more effectively, to listen more effectively, to articulate their messages more effectively, and to ultimately connect with people who are both culturally similar as well as those who are culturally different in ways that will allow them to be as effective as they possibly can be.
Being a Better Listener to Improve Workplace Culture
Jenn DeWall:
I love that. So right now what we’re going to do is walk through a little bit of some of those tips that you offer people and to those that are listening, and to the leaders that are listening, this is your opportunity to, you know, reach out and give that proverbial handshake and say, Hey, I may not know you, or we may not always have the same idea, the same thought pattern, but you know what? We can still work together. We can still respect each other. We can still have peace. What we’re going to talk about are some ways that we can overcome our differences to be more collaborative, to connect better, and to like foster also that respect that everyone deserves regardless of our differences. I’m excited to talk about some of these tips. So one of the tips in the book you talk about, which is you know, a foundational leadership skill, but it’s essential if you want to operate and create a more diverse and inclusive workspace and have a better conversation. And that was to acknowledge your weakness as a listener. Tell us what that means.
Tyrone Holmes:
The reality is that we, as human beings do not always listen as well as we should or as well as we ultimately can. And virtually all of us, at one point or another, is not an effective listener. Now I see myself as a multicultural communication expert, a person who is very knowledgeable in how we can listen, articulate our messages, and connect with people who are both culturally similar as well as those who are culturally different, more effectively. But the fact of the matter is that there are times, and my wife will attest to this, that I’m not the best listener.
Jenn DeWall:
So like why are you telling people to listen when you don’t?
Tyrone Holmes:
So it’s not like I’m trying to say I’m a great listener, and you all need to become better listeners. I’m saying we all need to become better listeners and there’s a number of reasons for that. I’ll give you a real simple reason why we don’t always listen as well. One, and I know everyone can relate to this, is that we live in a society that is now so fast-paced and now the expectation is that we move with that really, really high pace and we are inundated with so much information, and we’re always being asked to do something and do it better, do it faster and do it longer, so to speak. That actually makes it; it puts a stress on us too – if we’re listening to somebody and we’re engaged in a conversation to get it over as quickly as possible so we can get back to the work that we need to do. And so that’s one reason why we don’t listen as well as we can.
Another that’s kind of related is just the mechanics of listening. And the reality is that we can listen to words far more quickly than people can articulate those words. And so we might be sitting there and listening in what’s in the back of our mind. We think it is go faster, go faster, go faster. Okay, I need to know what this is because I got something else I need to do. And so that gets in the way of listening. And there are a variety of reasons why we don’t most, another one I think people will be able to relate to is that most of us when we’re listening to somebody, we don’t necessarily focus on what they’re saying and focus on gaining an understanding of the words that are coming out of their mouth. We focus on what we’re going to say as soon as they shut up.
And so where we are doing that, we’re not going to listen as well either. And so one of the things that I make or points that I make in the book is, is, to be honest with ourselves about our listening and to also be honest about when we can listen and when we can not. And I try to emphasize to people that it’s okay to say to someone, I want to give you my full attention, but I know I can’t do it right now. Let’s connect later on today when I have taken care of this issue I’ve got to take care of, and we could spend a little bit more time talking about what it is that you need to talk about. And I think that’s a very honest, very genuine way of actually improving your ability to listen, by recognizing that in order to listen, the most important thing for you to do is to be in the here and now is actually a term usually utilized in counseling and in communication called immediacy and immediacy is about the notion that you are in the here and the now with the person that you’re engaging at that moment you’re with them. You’re listening, you’re paying attention, you’re locked in, and what they have to say, well, we can’t always be at a place to do that. And it’s okay to say to somebody, and I can’t do that right now. I’ve got to do something else. Or I’ve got like one minute. It sounds like you need more than one minute. So let’s table this for a time when I can actually provide some time to listen and truly try to understand where you’re coming from. And so that, that’s the point of that- is that to be honest about our listening and to be okay with the idea that you can’t always listen to somebody and hear what they have to say because there are other things going on. And the honest and genuine thing is to simply say to them that, let’s talk about this at another time and I’ll be able to give you my full attention.
Don’t Pretend to Listen
Jenn DeWall:
I don’t get caught up in the fast pace of work. Recognize that if it does require a longer amount of time, just say so. People will be understanding, I would much rather have someone say, “Hey Jenn, like I know you really need to talk, but I think this will take longer than the time that I have, or I’m very immersed in what I’m doing. Can we talk about this at X time?” I would much rather have that than someone just talking to me but also staring at their computer monitor, like you know, typing away or picking up their phone and then like shaking their head, “uh-huh, uh-huh” you feel like you’re talking to a wall. I would much rather have someone just say, I can’t do it right now. It doesn’t make you a bad person. It makes you an honest person because you’re still moving that time to a better time that will work for you to be present or to practice immediacy. Absolutely, I feel like I’m learning words. So another tip that you offer is to be aware of the cultural influences of eye contact.
How Culture Influence Unconscious Bias
Tyrone Holmes:
Yes. I’m going to tell you a very quick story. And I tell the story when I facilitate a number of the workshops that I do because it’s a very important not to misinterpret a lack of eye contact or someone giving you good consistent eye contact because there’s a strong cultural influence on that. And the story I want to use is that it goes back to when I was at human resource manager for company and we had an Administration Manager that I worked with, great guy and I enjoyed working with them, and we had a position that we had to hire as Administration Supervisor, and I remember when we got together to do a little brainstorming in terms of that position and recruiting for that position and the interviewing process and things of that nature. I’ll never forget one of the things that he said to me when we, during that meeting and we were talking about doing the one on one interviews and doing some group interviews and what we wanted to look at in terms of criteria and how we were going to evaluate that criteria and all those kinds of good things.
I’ll never forget. One of the things he said to me is he said that my first thing whenever somebody comes in for an interview is I greet them. I say hello, I stick my hand out. I expect them to stick their hand out and shake my hand, and they better give me a firm handshake while they’re looking me directly in the eye. They don’t do that. I’m not going to hire them. And he and I had had a conversation about the cultural elements of what he said relative to a handshake and relative to direct eye context. So, for example, in the United States, particularly as it relates to our business culture, it’s very common to have the expectation of fairly consistent eye contact. Now that can still manifest itself in different ways with different people. You might look at someone while you’re talking to them, you might look away while you’re talking to them and then look at them while they’re talking to you.
You can handle it in different ways, but that’s still fairly consistent eye contact. But in some other cultures and some other societies, that kind of eye contact would be very, very much, well I’ll say this one would be less likely. So, for example, some traditional Asian societies and in some traditional Latino societies, it would be uncommon to see somebody make that kind of direct eye contact. And one of the reasons is because individuals and not all, and it’s important to say doesn’t apply to everybody, and it applies to some individuals perhaps, but, but not all individuals. But some individuals in those societies might take making direct eye contact, particularly with the person who was seen as being a leader in the organization as being disrespectful. And so they wouldn’t make direct eye contact simply because they think that would be disrespectful. And by looking away, they’re trying to be respectful toward them.
And so it’s important to understand that there are cultural influences when it comes to eye contact. And then in other elements of nonverbal communication as you interact with people. But eye contact is a particularly important one, and I’m always reminded of that. And I always think about that, that example of with our administration, a manager in his whole notion of you better make eye contact with me and give me a firm handshake, or you’re not a good employee or not a good potential employee. And it’s like, that’s probably not the case.
Diversity and a Firm Handshake
Jenn DeWall:
Well, and it’s something that I think we’re taught I, a few years back, I remember listening to a speaker and she was giving advice to people like career advice, right? About how to impress people, essentially how to build your personal brand. And some of the feedback that she gave to everyone is make sure that you’re giving eye contact and also that you must have a firm handshake. And if someone gives you a lamp or just a last strong handshake, then it’s, it’s telling you something about them, which isn’t true, right? This is just a conditioned response. It’s also a cultural norm of one sector of a culture to what one person says. But we have to be mindful that other people do not have those same guidelines. And it doesn’t make our guideline any more true than anyone else’s.
Tyrone Holmes:
That’s true. But let me say this, there are two sides of the coin and on the one side, the side that I was talking about before, if you’re making decisions about people you should not take into consideration how strong their handshake is. You should not take into consideration their level of eye contact. That’s probably going to be somewhat problematic in terms of how relevant that is in determining whether they can do the job or not.
But there’s another side of the coin, and the other side of the coin is if I was actually giving someone career advice and talking to them about how they engage or how they behave in their mannerisms during an interview, I’d probably say the same thing. Give a firm handshake and maintain a lot of eye contact. The reason I would say that is because I know there are people who expect that. And so if I’m giving you and we’re on the other side of the coin now, if I’m talking to you about how you can most likely increase the chances you get hired for that job, I would probably say to do those things, even though I know it’s invalid, to utilize those as criteria in the decision-making process. Does that make sense?
Jenn DeWall:
Yeah, absolutely.
Tyrone Holmes:
And so you have to think about it from both perspectives. And so I can see where I think the advice, the individual you’re referring to, the advice that person gave is valid advice. That’s a good idea to think about that because you’re going to go into a circumstance where you may run into people, and I’d like to think there are a few people then that think that way now than maybe they were 20 or 30 years ago. But you may run into a circumstance where people still have that kind of mindset of, wow, this person didn’t make eye contact. That says a lot about them. They weren’t looking directly in the eye. That says a lot about them. It says that they’re shifty or that they can’t be trusted. And I know there are still people who think that way because I’ve listened to people in training programs or workshops that I’ve facilitated who have said things like that. So I know that that mindset in the 2017, 2018, 2019 timeframe. So I know that kind of mindset still exists, but the reality is is that there’s not a good, there’s no evidence that there is good predictive validity in someone’s handshake or the extent to which they make eye contact when they first come into the interview room. And so you’re not going to be able to determine whether that person is going to be a good employee based on that.
Jenn DeWall:
So you’re telling me that if I master my handshake, you’re not going to be able to predict that I’ll be a CEO one day?
Tyrone Holmes:
No, probably not a good indicator.
Jenn DeWall:
Oh gosh. There are probably so many reasons why I could never have the job of a CEO, but I’ve got the eye contact, eye contact.
Tyrone Holmes:
Again, think about the different sides of the coin. I do a fair amount of work with individuals who are professional speakers in terms of helping them become more effective on the stage on the platform. And one of the things that I do emphasize that if you are speaking if you’re a teacher if you are a leader at a meeting if you are facilitating a workshop if you’re doing a speech, whatever it might be, that you do make consistent eye contact with your audience members, that is a very good idea. And if you’ve ever been at a workshop with me, especially if it’s maybe 50 or 60 people and not a huge session, not two or 300 people are a little bit more, more difficult. But if it’s a relatively small session, you’ll notice that I am looking at everybody in the eye. I try to, especially again if it’s 50 people or less, I try to look everybody in the eye during the course of that session because that’s a very good way to say to the audience you care about them, that you care about them getting something of value from your presentation and that you are a person that has an expertise that can be of value to them.
It also helps increase your likability, and so again, I’m not saying you’re necessarily going to have a better message if you make consistent eye contact. You can make consistent eye contact and really be bad. I mean, you can look at everybody and people like this person, right?
Jenn DeWall:
Right! But eye contact.
Tyrone Holmes:
Or conversely, you can not make very good eye contact and have a tremendously powerful and effective message. Understanding that if you’re going to be a speaker if you’re going to be a, or not just a professional speaker, but if you’re a leader facilitating a meeting for ten people, you should be making eye contact with people because it’s going to, it’s going to help you be more effective in delivering your message.
Diversity and Communication
Jenn DeWall:
Love that. Hey, so we know like, I like the, you know, just the feedback that it’s a cultural norm and it’s something that’s not necessarily meant to be like thrown away. There is still a complete value in doing it, but don’t put all your stock in it. Just like you can’t tell him, I’m going to be a CEO from my handshake. Another tip that you talk about is to recognize words, phrases, and behaviors that can have different meanings in different cultures. Yes. Why is that important, and what’s an example of a word that might have different meanings?
Tyrone Holmes:
You know what, let me think for a second. I’ve got to come up with something. Let me give an example, and I wish I had looked this up before we, we came into this, cause I don’t remember this exactly, but I do know that this is in the United States and I have the V I’m putting two fingers up at the V. It’s like thinking that V of victory this is seen as being the peace sign and there are other countries, this is seen as being the peace sign. There are also countries in which this is seen as putting up the middle finger. It has the same meaning as doing that. And so that’s an example of that. Now I think this is more important for people who probably travel abroad where you can see some dramatic differences in which particular gestures and what particular words mean. And I’m struggling to come up with a specific example in terms of word meaning.
Jenn DeWall:
No, but I think that even just the hand gesture is a great example and not necessarily a word, but it is a great example because if you grow up in one culture, you might use it and be happy and jolly. And you see that as a peace offering if you will, but in that culture, they may interpret that as the complete opposite of peace.
Tyrone Holmes:
And so that’s why that’s important. If you find yourself in a circumstance where you’re going to be interacting with people who are, have some significant cultural differences, particularly national differences, or if you find yourself working in a different country or just traveling in a different country, there might be words, there may be phrases, there may be gestures that have a completely different meaning in one culture to the next. And so if you’re going to find yourself in that position, it’s important to be understanding of how what we do here may not be how it’s done in different locations.
Communicate as Equals
Jenn DeWall:
Now, another tip that you have is to always speak to others as equals. Why does that matter in terms of improving communication? Especially maybe if you’re feeling like you are the boss, you are the manager, and this is your person that reports to you. Why the heck should you communicate to them as equals
Tyrone Holmes:
You can communicate better if you communicate with people as equals than you could if you communicate to them as if you are implicitly or explicitly saying you’re higher than them or better than them, or you’re not my equal, and I’m above you, that alone creates noise in the interaction and we haven’t talked about this concept of noise and let me take a quick step back. I said earlier, I’m a professional speaker, I’m a professional speaker, I’m a coach, I’m a consultant and I’m often asked what I speak on and what I do as a coach and a consultant, and I sometimes say partly tongue in cheek but seriously, too that I help people deal with the noise in their lives and noise by definition is anything that interferes with the accurate transmission of a message between a sender and a receiver. So you and I are having a conversation, and there are some things you want to say to me, and you want to make sure I understand.
There are some things I want to say to you, and I want to make sure you understand and noises. Anything that interferes with that. There are four types of noise, internal, external, emotional, and cultural. Now let me bring this back to your question in terms of creating a more egalitarian interaction. When you’re communicating with someone, one of the types of noise that can manifest itself when you’re dealing with inequality in terms of the interaction, maybe one person’s higher than the other person in terms of that interaction is emotional noise. It can increase anxiety, it can increase stress, and those are, those are examples of emotional noise that interfere with our ability to connect with one another. If you can create the circumstances that will indicate the people that you’re on the same level that you’re trying to have a conversation as equals, you will reduce that emotional noise, and you will, because of that, engage that person to communicate with them more effectively.
Now, here’s the thing that can certainly happen intentionally, and sometimes there are circumstances in which people want to say, I’m in charge, and you’re not. In fact, I’ve heard people say I’m in charge and you’re not, but there are some times that that happens unintentionally and I’m gonna give you an example. I was a college professor for four years, for two years at Eastern Michigan, Eastern Michigan University, and then for four years at Wayne State University in Detroit, and I learned something very early on while I was at Eastern Michigan University and I experienced it a little bit my first really first few weeks at Wayne State University as well. And this is what I experienced when I, as a new person, needed to call around to find out how something is done or find out what I needed to do to get from point A to point B.
I’d call an office, and one of the things I learned very quickly is when I said, hello, this is Dr. Holmes. I got one level of treatment. On the other hand, if I said, hello, this is Tyrone Holmes, I got a different level of treatment. It wasn’t a bad level of treatment, but I wasn’t catered to as much as what I said. I’m Dr. Holmes. I would bet anything that the people in the other end of the line did not realize they were doing that did not realize that they were being more inviting. They were being more open. They were being more, for lack of a better word, professional. They weren’t unprofessional when I said I’m Tyrone homes, but they were really more inviting and more helpful when I said this is Dr. Holmes.
Jenn DeWall:
More attentive to you.
Tyrone Holmes:
Exactly. And it was a very interesting thing to learn. First of all, I learned to always call somebody and say, this is Dr. Holmes. I stopped saying this is Tyrone Holmes pretty quickly, but I use this as an example because, and again, I bet you this happened unintentionally on their part. I am betting that this was unconscious on their part. Is that their minds? It wasn’t even a mindset. What happened unconsciously is that when they heard Dr. Holmes, they realize, well, this is a serious, or a professor or a Dean or an Associate Dean or somebody like that. So I need to give them one level of service. And unconsciously when they hear Tyrone Holmes, they heard, Oh, this might be a student. So okay, let me just take care of this and then get on to the next thing I needed to do. And I don’t think anybody ever did that intentionally. I genuinely don’t believe that, but I think they did it unintentionally. So again, that was my long-winded way of saying, if we try to enter circumstances where we have a conscious focus on treating people as equals in a conscious focus on creating a more egalitarian interaction, I think we will engage people more effectively. We’ll reduce noise and, we’ll be able to connect more effectively and really get people to want to connect with us more.
Jenn DeWall:
Great. Well, and no one wants to feel like they’re being talked down to or not treated as equals because it’s, you know, it’s funny because I think the sender, depending on how sophisticated is, sometimes they may talk whether this is intentional or not, they may sometimes think that they conceal it really well, but I think the receiver can always process any type of disparity and that relationship, I think it’s obvious. We can tell when someone respects us. Just as when you said Dr. Tyrone Holmes and not that they were disrespectful, but you can tell just based on the level of treatment, how they process that. And the decision they make and you know, we, we see, we notice it and so remember that just as much as you as an individual experience that the people that you’re talking to notice it, too.
Sometimes Communication is About Where You Sit
Tyrone Holmes:
Absolutely. I’ll give you a really quick example, and I do this in some of the leadership training I do or say this is some of the leadership training I do. You can basically, just by the way you set up your interaction with someone, say to them that this is going to be an equal egalitarian interaction or do something a little bit different and say to them that I’m in charge – you will listen. And it’s going to be more of a one way, I’m the boss, you’re the employee type interaction, and this is what I say to people. It all comes down to where do you sit at your desk. If you want to create a more egalitarian circumstance situation, get out from behind your desk with two chairs and sit across from the person with nothing in between that says the person that we’re going to have a conversation as equals and we’re going to have some good dialogue, some good two-way communication about whatever the issue is. If you sit behind your desk that says to the person, I’m in charge; you’re not, this is going to be one more one-way communication. Even if that’s not your intention, that’s how it’s going to be interpreted consciously and or unconsciously by the individual that you’re interacting with, and it’s going to not minimize, but it’s going to reduce the potential quality of that interaction just by where you sit behind your desk versus in front of your desk with nothing between you and the person you’re interacting with.
The Town Hall Meeting
Jenn DeWall:
Oh, those are great things to be mindful of. I love that. Just the simple things that we can do to acknowledge that so we can ensure that the communication between ourselves and others, goes the best way that it can. So will we only have time to talk about a few more tips, but there are a few more that I wanted to ask you about. One, in particular, was to hold town hall meetings. How in the heck is that going to improve our communication?
Tyrone Holmes:
Actually, that’s a very good way to do that. Now typically for those who don’t know, a town hall meeting did in an organization usually is getting members of the organization together to talk about some issue that’s relevant probably to diversity and inclusion. And it could be any number of different topics that you might have. If there is a concern as it relates to something related to diversity inclusion, perhaps you have a conversation about that. If there has been an incident in the organization, a conflict that people know about and have been dancing around, maybe use a town hall meeting to address that. But there’s a number of different things that you can do. But to more directly answer your question, the power of a town hall meeting is where it gives people a chance to come and talk about concerns they may have or talk about solutions to those concerns. And the key to what I just said is the solutions part. Because town hall meetings can be problematic. They can not work. They could fail.
Jenn DeWall:
Oh, I’m sure.
Tyrone Holmes:
It could fail when they just become times for people to come together to complain about stuff. And I’m not saying that shouldn’t happen. There should be opportunities for people to articulate their concerns that they have without necessarily having to come up with a solution right then. But I have found that the best town hall meetings basically pose a problem. This is a problem we have. Let’s talk about that problem, but we want you to bring some potential solutions, and let’s do some brainstorming around that. That can really have a twofold positive effect. The obvious positive effect is you do some brainstorming, perhaps identify some potential solutions to whatever that problem might be, but the second is, you usually get a diverse people to come together to have some conversation around it. And it goes back to one of the very first things I said at the beginning of this podcast, and that is, we want to create opportunities for people to engage those they don’t normally have a chance to engage and learn more.
Those they don’t have normally have a chance to learn about, and that can be a form in which that can happen. People can interact with those they don’t normally have a chance to interact with. They can have conversations with people that they perhaps never met before that particular day, or maybe they’ve seen but never had a chance to really interact with. And so that can really help the process of beginning to bring those barriers down, both barriers, a difference, and allowing us to utilize some of our similarities such as maybe a similarity around, we have a concern about this problem, let’s use that to have some good dialogue and build a bridge across our differences. And so town hall meetings can be a very effective way of doing that.
Jenn DeWall:
I’ve heard of some companies, some actually large Fortune 100 organizations that are now starting to actually have town hall meetings that discuss current events. It could be about race relations. It could be about X, Y, and Z. But they’re talking about the real-life events that are impacting their employees, and they’re generating that conversation to give them a voice to acknowledge that, Hey, even though their work, it doesn’t mean their mind is completely there if something happens. We have to acknowledge that there are sensitive things that occur. And just because they happen outside of the workforce doesn’t mean they don’t come in with that with an individual. And I just love the idea of these large corporations saying, you know what? We’re going to talk about this. We’re not going to pretend that that stuff doesn’t walk into our organization. We’re not going to pretend that those differences don’t exist. We’re going to talk about those differences so we can create awareness around them. I think it’s powerful
Tyrone Holmes:
And you just said something very important, and I think a lot of organizations fail to recognize this, is that people don’t leave their baggage outside the door when they come to work. They bring it in with them and the problems that they encounter in the world, they bring with them into the workplace. It’s important for companies to acknowledge that it’s important for companies to recognize that if you have a current event or whatever it might be, that can significantly impact a portion of your workforce, they’re going to be significantly impacted outside of the workplace, and they’re going to be significantly impacted inside the workplace. Perhaps to the extent that you need to address that. And I think a lot of organizations drop the ball and, and basically have this expectation, leave your baggage on the, on the steps of the steps of the office and you can pick it up on your way out and go to work, and human beings don’t work that way,
Designing a More Diverse and Inclusive Culture
Jenn DeWall:
Right we are, you know, we’re too sophisticated. Our brain is too dynamic to expect that people can compartmentalize truly and live in a vacuum. I just feel like there’s, it’s not going to happen. I mean, we are not designed that way. We are, our brains are too complex. We have, I think I heard today listening to a podcast. We have over 50,000, you know, thoughts on any given day. So to think that all 50,000 of those will revolve around work when we’re at work is, you know, it’s unrealistic, and it’s, I mean, how we feel. I love that you and I are having this conversation on diversity and I hope that our leaders that are listening to this podcast really found opportunities that you shared with them of how they can truly design a more diverse and inclusive culture and how they can start improving their communication tips and how they transform their conversations with others.
What is Your Leadership Habit For Success?
Jenn DeWall:
I know that we didn’t get to talk about all of your tips, and I so wanted to talk about more, but our conversation was way too great to be able to do that. But for those of you listening, Tyrone offers over 70 tips to improve your communication to make diversity a competitive advantage. The title of his book is Making Diversity a Competitive Advantage. It’s something that we all need to recognize. We all need to start generating those conversations, and talking to each other, getting to know more about each other because we are so much stronger together than we are apart. Absolutely. So, and then so the last question that we have to ask every one of our interviewers, and it’s because we are named The Leadership Habit, so we’d like to ask everyone, what is your leadership habit for success? You’re a professor or former professor, and you are an academic, you’re a speaker, you’re a coach, you’re a consultant. How the heck do you keep up with it all? What’s your leadership habit for success?
Tyrone Holmes:
Actually, I have to say, and we haven’t talked about this at all, which is fine, but I am also an avid cyclist.
Jenn DeWall:
Oh!
Tyrone Holmes:
I am a level one USA cycling coach, which is the expert level, the highest level you can attain. I am a certified personal trainer with the American Council of Exercise. I am a level two TrainingPeaks certified coach, and while the coaching that the athletic coaching is not the primary thing that I do, what we’ve been talking about is the primary thing that I do. I am an avid cyclist and exercise enthusiast, and now I’m going to answer your question. I think in order for leaders to self-actualize, to be as good as they can be, they have to practice passionate self-care, and my self-care manifests itself as cycling and exercising four to five days a week and making that a priority.
I schedule everything else around my rides around my strength training sessions around things of that nature. That comes first. Everything else comes second. And the reason I do that is because this may surprise you. I used to weigh about 60 pounds more than I weigh right now. I’ve spent my entire life yo-yo-ing, gaining weight, losing weight. I literally have lost 40 pounds in a year and gained it back the next year. And it wasn’t until 2005 when I lost weight and finally kept it off. And that’s when I started cycling and started racing competitively. And I don’t race as I did before. I don’t do that as much in terms of cycling, but I still ride extensively. So I would say my leadership tip in terms of what leaders should be doing is take care of yourself. You can’t take care of others; you can’t take care of business if you don’t take care of yourself.
Jenn DeWall:
I love it. Passionate self-care. Yes! Tyrone, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. I really enjoyed our conversation.
Tyrone Holmes:
Thank you. I enjoyed it, as well.
We hope you enjoyed this episode of The Leadership Habit Podcast. If you would like more information about Dr. Tyrone Holmes or want to buy a copy of his book, Making Diversity a Competitive Advantage, you can go to his website: www.drtyroneholmes.com . If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate us on your favorite podcast streaming service.
