{"id":360197,"date":"2021-12-10T13:21:08","date_gmt":"2021-12-10T20:21:08","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/crestcom.com\/?p=360197"},"modified":"2021-12-10T13:21:08","modified_gmt":"2021-12-10T20:21:08","slug":"dei-and-leading-below-the-surface-latonya-wilkins-founder-of-the-change-coaches","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/crestcom.com\/blog\/2021\/12\/10\/dei-and-leading-below-the-surface-latonya-wilkins-founder-of-the-change-coaches\/","title":{"rendered":"DEI and Leading Below the Surface LaTonya Wilkins, Founder of the Change Coaches"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_5382\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-360197-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/leadershiphabit\/content.blubrry.com\/leadershiphabit\/The_Leadership_Habit_Podcast-Season_3-Ep_33_with_LaTonya_Wilkins.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/leadershiphabit\/content.blubrry.com\/leadershiphabit\/The_Leadership_Habit_Podcast-Season_3-Ep_33_with_LaTonya_Wilkins.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/leadershiphabit\/content.blubrry.com\/leadershiphabit\/The_Leadership_Habit_Podcast-Season_3-Ep_33_with_LaTonya_Wilkins.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/leadershiphabit\/content.blubrry.com\/leadershiphabit\/The_Leadership_Habit_Podcast-Season_3-Ep_33_with_LaTonya_Wilkins.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/crestcom.com\/?powerpress_pinw=360197-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/leadershiphabit\/content.blubrry.com\/leadershiphabit\/The_Leadership_Habit_Podcast-Season_3-Ep_33_with_LaTonya_Wilkins.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"The_Leadership_Habit_Podcast-Season_3-Ep_33_with_LaTonya_Wilkins.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/5HfSiwCBm13zYMVH5fWnLz\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/crestcom.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/crestcom.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><h1>DEI and Leading Below the Surface LaTonya Wilkins, Founder of the Change Coaches<\/h1>\n<p>Intro:<\/p>\n<p>Hi everyone. It\u2019s Jenn DeWall. And on this week\u2019s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with <strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/latonyawilkins\/\">LaTonya Wilkins<\/a><\/strong>, who is the founder of <strong><a href=\"https:\/\/latonyawilkins.com\/\">The Change Coaches, LLC<\/a><\/strong>, and LaTonya works with C-Suite and executive leaders, teams where human connection and cultural change really happen- below the service. Latonya is a credentialed coach, author, and sought-after keynote speaker, who has inspired audiences all over the world. And today, LaTonya and I are going to talk all about how you can make DE&amp;I a part of your everyday leadership.<\/p>\n<h2>Meet LaTonya Wilkins<\/h2>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>Hi, everyone. It\u2019s Jenn DeWall. In this week\u2019s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I\u2019m sitting down with LaTonya Wilkins, and I\u2019m so excited for this conversation cuz we are going to be talking about how you as a leader can bring DE&amp;I into your everyday leadership approach. Thinking about what you can do in your interactions, in your communications with people, just even how you respond in a meeting to make sure that you are practicing things that build an inclusive culture that make sure people feel seen, respected, heard, and valued. Latonya. I have been looking forward to this, and I\u2019m so excited to talk about your newest book, but please, for our audience that does not know you, could you just tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came to be and also your newest book?<\/p>\n<p>LaTonya Wilkins:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah. Hi everyone. So I\u2019m LaTonya, and I run a company called The Change Coaches. And basically, we help companies and teams create cultures of belonging. I am an executive coach first, and then I do workshops, and I also am a keynote speaker and master facilitator. Last year or sorry, a couple of months ago, last year. It does seem like last year, a couple<\/p>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>&lt;Laugh&gt; right. Everything in the last few years just blends together!<\/p>\n<p>LaTonya Wilkins:<\/p>\n<p>&lt;Crosstalk&gt; right! A couple of months ago, I wrote a book called <em>Leading Below the Surface<\/em> about how to build real psychologically safe relationships with people who are different from you. And I published that book as a culmination of the work that I do. And I culminated that with my experiences in the workplace being \u201cothered\u201d and also my experiences in the workplace of success. And that\u2019s what I call below the surface leaders of the people that I\u2019ve worked with around that. So that\u2019s a little bit about me. One cool thing about the book is Amy Edmondson, who is the Harvard researcher who actually discovered the term psychological safety wrote my foreword. So that\u2019s pretty cool.<\/p>\n<h2>Feeling \u201cOthered\u201d in the Workplace<\/h2>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, that is fantastic. And this is a topic that we know has really kind of taken the forefront, and you described it as feeling othered for those that might not be familiar with what that can look like. What does it mean? What\u2019s the definition of feeling othered? What does that mean?<\/p>\n<p>LaTonya Wilkins:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, yeah. So that\u2019s been my entire life. So let me talk a little bit about it from like a more childhood perspective all the way up to today in the workplace. So in my book in chapter three, I write my chapter is, is called humans were born to exclude, and I talk about my first experience that I ever remember being othered. And what that looked like is, I was actually in an art class, and I was drawing a picture. I was the only black kid in my class. I grew up in Iowa. And so there\u2019s no one else that looked like me. There\u2019s no one else had that, that color of skin. So I was actually conflicted on what color to make the face of the person that I was drawing. And I decided on a color that I, I think I decided on yellow, and the hair was purple.<\/p>\n<p>And when it came around to me, and I showed my drawing, someone told me that that\u2019s not what that picture should look like and that I was dark and that picture should be dark. And that was the first time I felt othered. Everybody else shared their pictures, and they got applause, and mine was corrected. And that was, and that kind of went on and on. I talked about this in the book where, you know, on the playground, I would, I would get picked last for like Four Square or Dodgeball. And it kind of all started after that incident with that drawing and the workplace, the way that I\u2019ve been othered. And some of you have probably been othered as well is when I, I don\u2019t really fit into one category. Right? You know, I\u2019m a black woman. I identify as a part of the LGBTQ plus community. And so whenever I was trying to go into, for example, join an ERG, for example, employee resource group, I had to pick one of them, and it was always hard. I was always the other that didn\u2019t fit into any of those boxes. And so that\u2019s what othered being othered feels like. Like you, you don\u2019t fit into the boxes that are put out there for the masses, and you\u2019re always in other. You\u2019re always separate. You\u2019re always the exception.<\/p>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>My gosh. Well, in one, I mean, I can only imagine how that felt to get that feedback when you were younger, just knowing that no one else had that same type of experience and how- I don\u2019t know- just harsh that would feel or alienating just like I\u2019m isolated over here on an island. And when we talk about it at work, and I know we\u2019re gonna go into talking about what psychology, like psychological safety, looks like, you know, today versus before today, but why is it important to actually create an inclusive culture in the workplace? I mean, cuz some people I know in the lines of traditional leadership, they\u2019d be like, oh, it\u2019s just your feelings. You need to get over it. And you know, there are ways that I think people marginalize those experiences. And there\u2019s obviously a shift now where we\u2019re starting to see things differently. But like for those that really need to still hear this message, like why do we need to make sure that we\u2019re creating a place to invite everyone to the table?<\/p>\n<h2>Why is DEI Important at Work?<\/h2>\n<p>LaTonya Wilkins:<\/p>\n<p>Well, and I\u2019m gonna answer that with a question. Why wouldn\u2019t we want to? I mean, humans are basically they can make or break your workplace. Like if you can\u2019t hire the humans you need, you have no product. If you can\u2019t hire the humans you need, you can\u2019t manage people. If you can\u2019t hire the humans you need, you can\u2019t really grow your company. I mean, we\u2019re not in the age where AI is as yet going to be as productive as an actual human being. So why wouldn\u2019t we care about inclusive leadership? Why wouldn\u2019t we care? Why wouldn\u2019t we wanna make DEI a part of our regular leadership, our day-to-day leadership? And I always ask that with a question, if you are someone that\u2019s struggling with that and you\u2019re thinking this stuff is really not important. Why not? Why wouldn\u2019t it be important?<\/p>\n<p>Because again, it\u2019s, when you think about this stuff and the reason why I wrote this book is that sometimes we pigeonhole DEI into separate, but, and, and a lot of times, the way we talk about this stuff is it is, is separate, but it\u2019s really a part of everyday leadership. I mean, do you manage people that are younger than you? Do you manage people that are a lot older than you? Did you, do you manage people that may have lost someone through the pandemic? Do you manage a worker that is a different class from you again, all of this has to do with inclusion? So I think again, I\u2019d ask you why not, especially if you answered yes to any of those questions. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>Well, let\u2019s talk about the difference between what psychological safety may be used to mean at work or what it was before people really started to have that as a forefront and something that we have to do. So what is the difference between psychological safety before or in traditional leadership versus where it\u2019s at today?<\/p>\n<p>LaTonya Wilkins:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, I don\u2019t really think we talked about psychological safety as, as we do now before Amy\u2019s work was, was really put out there. I think a lot of times, what we talked about before 2020, I would say, is trust, and we talked a lot about how to build trust in teams. Like that was the buzz buzzword. How do we build trust with our teams and it\u2019s but trust in order to build trust, you, you have to have psychological safety? And that was kind of the missing piece. I think that a lot of people were looking for, they were looking, they knew what that was, but it had never been put into words. And what psychological safety means is that you know, you could speak up at work, and you could make a mistake at work. You could bring your whole self to work without any kind of punishment or repercussions or any harsh judgments, which when I found Amy\u2019s work, and this is the reason why I asked her to be, to, to write my forward, I was like, wow, I haven\u2019t had this in like 90% of my career.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019d never had it articulated like that. Did I trust leaders? Yeah. But that\u2019s the reason why I trust the leaders is because I had psychological safety. So yeah, I don\u2019t think again, I think we, we just, weren\u2019t talking about it. It wasn\u2019t put into the words that that, you know, how Amy put \u2019em into for us to be able to understand this and easily digest<\/p>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>I love that it\u2019s something that\u2019s at the forefront because even, you know, again, we\u2019re not talking about DE&amp;I as something that\u2019s maybe exclusive to one particular part of that conversation. We\u2019re talking about being able to have that ability to bring your full self, to work your full self. I remember the thing, you know, when I talk, when I think, and I\u2019ve shared this example on the podcast before, but when I received the feedback, Hey, Jenn, you need to be more vanilla and more of a yes, man. And you need to stop laughing outside of the office. Those are, are all things that upon receiving that feedback, I wasn\u2019t initially going into the, oh, what\u2019s the coachable way that I can, you know, rectify this. I was actually going to a place of like, wow, I don\u2019t actually add value or I must be too different to actually produce any value for this organization.<\/p>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>And you think about that for anyone. When we\u2019re excluded, when we\u2019re also penalized for who we are. What does that do for our own engagement? I mean, if you\u2019re telling me that I can\u2019t laugh and I feel like one of my things is the ability to connect with people and just see them as that. And that\u2019s sometimes through humor at work, but you\u2019re telling me I can\u2019t do that. How am I supposed to show up? And on the flip side of that, when I did kind of pull back after I got the feedback that they had a conversation with me that, that I wasn\u2019t supposed to do that, and it\u2019s so confusing. And I just eventually like just created the sense of, I don\u2019t know if this is the right culture that I want to be a part of. And I know that I wasn\u2019t the only one that had those same types of experiences and maybe that one wasn\u2019t related to the fear of failure, but that was definitely related to who I am.<\/p>\n<h2>DEI and Psychological Safety<\/h2>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ve also worked in strong fear-based culture in that people kind of always felt like they were like &#8211; is someone, someone looking? Or just always feeling like you had to watch your back to make sure that like you weren\u2019t gonna drop the ball or that someone wasn\u2019t after you. I guess those are the ways that I\u2019ve kind of seen psychological safety, maybe show up in a negative way in the workplace when we don\u2019t have it. And what that does for the individual, or even just adding into mental health challenges or disconnection on teams. I said a lot there. I said a lot there. You\u2019re probably like you are in circles, but I, I just love it because I, as someone that I don\u2019t know, I wanna feel seen and maybe that could have something to do with my own childhood, of course. I wanna feel connected. I wanna feel like I matter. And that\u2019s, I feel like everyone wants to feel like they matter. And so I don\u2019t even get why this is kind of a conversation when I feel like it isn\u2019t just being a human being.<\/p>\n<p>LaTonya Wilkins:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah. And I love what you said because I think if you are a manager or you lead a team, and you\u2019re listening to this if we\u2019re trying to fix someone. Like when Jenn described what she just described, all the stories, it was someone trying to fix her and them, they, they didn\u2019t have the right tools, and they kept buying more tools, and they didn\u2019t work. And finally, Jenn left, if you\u2019re trying to fix them, you\u2019re probably not creating a psychologically safe environment again, for people to bring themselves to work their approaches to work again without repercussion or without harsh judgment. It doesn\u2019t sound like Jenn had that. Right? And if you\u2019re trying to fix someone again, it\u2019s like hiring a marketing manager, and they only can market a certain way. And if you\u2019re getting them trying to mold them into exactly what you want, they\u2019re probably not feeling very psychologically safe, especially if you are constantly criticizing their work. And that\u2019s the opposite of it. So thank you for sharing that example because there is a, there are a lot of workplaces that still try to fix their employees. And again, they don\u2019t realize that this takes them further and further away from promoting a psychologically safe environment.<\/p>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>Yes. Oh my gosh. I love this conversation. So let\u2019s, we\u2019re gonna baseline it. And we\u2019re gonna talk about, like at a foundational level, what is diversity, equity and inclusion, and how does that relate to leadership?<\/p>\n<h2>What is Diversity?<\/h2>\n<p>LaTonya Wilkins:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, so DEI, honestly, I, when I wrote my book, I say several times in my book that it\u2019s not a DEI book because I, I really think, believe that this is a part of leadership. And, and when I, before I wrote <em>Leading Below the Surface<\/em>, I read a ton of studies, and I did a lot of research, and the research supports it. If in order for this to work, it has to be a part of leadership. But what is DEI? Well, you know, diversity equity inclusion, right? Diversity is knowing your group, looking around, making sure that you have diversity within that group. Diversity does diverse, does not describe a person. That term is often used incorrectly, like \u201cdiverse hire.\u201d There\u2019s no such thing you could say, oh, I went diversity on my team. So let\u2019s hire some different types of people. But when you say diverse hire, that actually causes friction in an organization. So I try to stay away from that. That\u2019s not. That\u2019s not really what that means. So that\u2019s diversity.<\/p>\n<h2>What is Equity?<\/h2>\n<p>LaTonya Wilkins:<\/p>\n<p>Equity is another one that\u2019s often misunderstood, and that\u2019s, whoever is at a workplace, let\u2019s say, let\u2019s take B. And Jenn, for example, let\u2019s assume that we\u2019re on the same team. So whatever Jenn needs in her career to be successful, she has access. And I have access to those same things, not the same things that Jenn needs, but the things that would make me successful, I have access to those. All right. Equity is not a quality, like making it equal for me and Jenn it\u2019s, it\u2019s making sure that if I, again, that I have access to the things that I need in order to succeed and what that might look like is &#8211; like the what example that I\u2019ve been talking to, someone, a leader about coaching leader about is there someone on their team that, that has a health issue and giving that person access to address their health issue as like the same way they would give that to someone else. Right? No matter what that health issue is, and the reason why I think this is such a great example is that for example, if there\u2019s if someone\u2019s having a baby, that\u2019s something that people celebrate in our culture, but if someone has a medical condition that has a stigma attached to it, that\u2019s different. Right? And so, you still have to give them equity. Right? My, that Jenn\u2019s equity when she\u2019s having a baby has to be the same as my equity when I have a disease that might have a stigma attached to it. So that\u2019s equity. Inclusion-<\/p>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>I love that example. And I\u2019m sorry, cut you off. Cause I think that\u2019s a great example that people can relate to like, oh, my colleague is pregnant. This is so great. Of course, they\u2019ll get time off. Of course, we\u2019ll get that. Right. And you don\u2019t hear people saying like, oh my God, did you hear that Latonya is pregnant? She\u2019s gonna take all this time off. But yet then if you\u2019re like, Hey, by the way, did you hear that XYZ is sick with this? Then we\u2019re like, oh, they do not care. They must not do this. Like, I\u2019ve never heard that way of describing.<\/p>\n<p>LaTonya Wilkins:<\/p>\n<p>That is or overweight. And it\u2019s so true. Yeah. Like overweight, like things again with a stigma. There\u2019s we don\u2019t think about, or even people, kids versus no kids, right? Like, like what if Jenn has, you know, she could leave event three o\u2019clock every day to pick up her kids, but you know, person B maybe I don\u2019t have any children, but I need to take off at three every day to, to, you know, expand my education. Right, right. Again, are you giving equity? Is there equity? And it\u2019s not equal, and it\u2019s equity. What I need to succeed in my career might be different from what Jenn might need.<\/p>\n<h2>What is Inclusion?<\/h2>\n<p>LaTonya Wilkins:<\/p>\n<p>Inclusion is basically bringing in people that come from traditionally marginalized environments. I would say this also means in a way that shares power there\u2019s a saying out there that says something like diversity is inviting someone to the dance, and inclusion is dancing with them. I hate that saying because it\u2019s like, you\u2019re not really sharing the sharing. The power would be, you\u2019re actually asking them what kind of music that you want them to listen to. That\u2019s real inclusion. Like not just dancing with them, but you know, asking them what type of dance they\u2019d like to do or is, you know, asking the type of music that they\u2019d like to dance to again, sharing the power, sharing the decision-making with them.<\/p>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>Oh my God. My, this is, and it\u2019s so important to be able to understand that differentiation. And I like that you take the stance that <em>Leading Below the Surface<\/em> isn\u2019t just this DE&amp;I book. It\u2019s a way of leading every single day. So let\u2019s talk about where do people get it wrong? And I know we hit on a few examples, but where, so maybe it\u2019s just in looking at this as like this initiative, it\u2019s a strategy that we\u2019re trying to do. That\u2019s the first thing, but where do people get this wrong?<\/p>\n<h2>DEI is Not the Side Dish\u2014 It\u2019s the Main Dish<\/h2>\n<p>LaTonya Wilkins:<\/p>\n<p>I think what people get it wrong again is it\u2019s a side dish, not the main dish. And it\u2019s the main dish, right? It\u2019s, it\u2019s going to work every day and practicing what I call the three prongs of below the surface leadership\u2014 <strong><a href=\"https:\/\/crestcom.com\/blog\/2021\/11\/16\/empathy-the-skill-leaders-need-now\/\">empathy<\/a><\/strong> is the first prong. Real leadership\u2019s the second prong. And that means relatable, equitable, aware, and loyal. And the third prong is psychological safety. It\u2019s bringing that into your day-to-day leadership. Before I went on my own, I led learning and development teams, Jenn, and you know this. And so it\u2019s in one of the things we always focused on were leadership, like leadership development and competencies, what these leadership competencies were. And these competencies were always like strategy, collaboration, like all those types of things. Right. You know, and they never had below the surface, like, or anything.<\/p>\n<p>Like, there\u2019s never a lot of how we treat people. It was like what we were trying to manage to. And so it\u2019s those again, it\u2019s the how, it\u2019s the, how we get where we\u2019re trying to go. And that\u2019s the advice I would give is to bring this into your daily leadership. You have to think about this again, as the main dish, it\u2019s part of leadership. It\u2019s, it\u2019s part of everything that you do, you lead human beings, right? So you have to be on that level with human beings, like a computer, you have to learn to program a computer. So you also every day have to learn how to effectively build relationships with humans, especially those who are different from ourselves.<\/p>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>Do we complicate this stuff? Like, do we complicate it? Because sometimes I just, I really do think it comes down to, I love that you say it\u2019s like, it\u2019s the main piece. It\u2019s not just a strategy. It\u2019s a way it\u2019s your how- how you show up as an individual. How in the heck do we get so far away from understanding how to treat people like that? And I know that\u2019s actually a loaded question, and we could probably go a lot of different ways, but to me, in some ways, I just feel like it seems so, like, don\u2019t be a jerk. Like understand that we\u2019re gonna have different points of view, understand that we have different life experiences. And I\u2019m gonna treat you as a human being and love you for being a human being. But yeah, yet, somehow we\u2019re not able to deliver that because otherwise, this wouldn\u2019t be a conversation. So I\u2019m curious what your thoughts are. Like, why do we complicate this?<\/p>\n<h2>You Can\u2019t Mandate DEI<\/h2>\n<p>LaTonya Wilkins:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah. So there was an article that I cited in my book, and I also do a lot of leadership team coaching, especially with executive teams. I give them this article a lot, but it\u2019s it was written. I think it\u2019s an <strong><a href=\"https:\/\/hbr.org\/2016\/07\/why-diversity-programs-fail\">HBR article<\/a><\/strong>, but it was also appeared in Anthropology Today and in a journal, a couple of other journals, and it\u2019s called why diversity initiatives fail. And like I said, HBR repurposed it in 2020. So you could go search that in HBR. You\u2019ll find it. But it\u2019s because we focus again on the wrong things. The number one thing that we focus on that\u2019s overcomplicating it and making it worse is that we mandate the stuff. Nobody likes being told what to do. Okay. So when you start mandating things, then no one\u2019s gonna wanna do it.<\/p>\n<p>The number two thing we do is it\u2019s an us versus them. So we did- all these companies did all these trainings around. Hey, these are the different types of racial groups we work with. These are the kinds of, you know, women\u2019s groups you work with. This is what disparate impact is. People want a role in making change. They want a role in culture change. So when you\u2019re doing these mandatory trainings, you\u2019re telling them what not to do. You\u2019re not telling them what to do, and you\u2019re not letting them kind of decide what to do. So again, the second thing is control. Again, we, we put these things out there.<\/p>\n<p>The third is training. So, and I hate this is gonna be controversial, but that\u2019s also cited in the article. A lot of organizations just do training, and they stop there. Experiential learning is really what\u2019s gonna help. Another thing that\u2019s gonna help is exposure, exposure to different types of people in the world. So again, if you, in your organization, so again, if you\u2019re siloing people and making them do training, and then you\u2019re done after that, that\u2019s not gonna work. But again, you have to have some way to practice this and reinforce it. And so, yeah, we\u2019re overcomplicating it because these are, and that\u2019s just a few facts of what the science says. We\u2019re not following and practicing what the science says. Good. Where are we arbitrarily putting together these DEI functions? That\u2019s what every company did in 2020, especially in 2020. They\u2019re like, we gotta have a DEI, you know, a Chief Diversity Officer. I\u2019m so excited. And then it\u2019s a separate thing. And it\u2019s disconnected again from leadership development. I\u2019ve had that experience. I\u2019ve seen it. So yes, we do overcomplicate it.<\/p>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>I like that, or I just appreciate that because I didn\u2019t ever hear the perspective of, or I don\u2019t know if I thought about it that way until you just shared it, that you&#8217;re mandating a way to treat others. And one of the pieces, I think that\u2019s one of the undercurrents of a DE&amp;I I, is also the ability to be curious with everyone. Yeah. How could I learn? What could you know, what experience do they have that I don\u2019t have, and then you mandate it. And initially, it\u2019s just placing judgment into a thing that maybe prevents us from even being curious in some capacities. Cause we\u2019re like, well, I\u2019m taking on this judgment. So I\u2019m closing down the conversation instead of being like, Hey, what could be a different way that I could approach this? Like I never thought about that until saying, yeah, when you make it a forced thing, then you remove curiosity and then it becomes more of this us against them, like an argument that\u2019s I don\u2019t know why. I didn\u2019t think about that, like as an obvious consequence of mandating this as a strategy, instead of just how you treat people.<\/p>\n<p>LaTonya Wilkins:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah. It\u2019s interesting too, because in social psychology, I mean, there are different types of control, right? There\u2019s formal control, which is like policies and, and compliance and of course structures and systems, but then there\u2019s also social control, which can be good or bad, but social control would be like, you know, your organization is so committed to, you know, DEI or having a culture belonging that there will be social consequences instead of formal hand lapses. Right. And, and so again, that\u2019s another thing that orgs get wrong is like, they get stuck in this kind of compliance space. And again, I\u2019m not saying we don\u2019t need HR policies around some of this stuff, but it\u2019s like a lot of times we put way too much energy there at the expense of the organizational or the social type of control stuff.<\/p>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>Well, and are you having the conversation? I think of an example I\u2019d heard. Gosh, this is probably a few months ago of a set of employees from a specific regional office that was not necessarily happy about all of these new like DE&amp;I initiatives and whether or not I agree with their happiness. I wonder if part of the reason that it also went wrong is like, there wasn\u2019t a curiosity conversation around like what this really can look like and why it\u2019s important. Right? Like they don\u2019t tell the why, they just say, well, we\u2019re gonna make sure we\u2019re aligning with this. Like, but they\u2019re maybe not taking the time to slow down. Like, Hey, here are the things that you may not have visibility to. And this is why this matters. Yeah.<\/p>\n<h2>Leaders Should Get Curious about DEI on Their Teams<\/h2>\n<p>LaTonya Wilkins:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah. And as a coach, I think that\u2019s important because as a coach when I coach teams, and we talk about, you know, building cultures of belonging and doing these human-centered design sessions, I always make sure everybody has a place in this. And they decide what their place is. And again, we don\u2019t let people do that when we\u2019re doing this old-school type of approach. As Jenn said, there\u2019s no room for curiosity. And there\u2019s also no room for someone to decide, like how they\u2019re gonna make an impact. Right? Ahead of finance or someone that works in finance may look way different than someone working in HR. Right. And so letting them kind of decide, like, how do I wanna do this in my organization? Like, what does my commitment look like? And how could I inspire my team? And it\u2019s different for every organization. Like we\u2019ve we were talking about this too. It might be different also for US-based versus Global based. That\u2019s why it\u2019s so important to let people kind of give people like the base and let them decide, you know, the seasonings and everything else from there because then they\u2019re gonna is more committed to it. Because it\u2019s their own goals, now. It\u2019s not the company, again, pushing things on them.<\/p>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah. They can take their own unique experience perspective and figure out how they can add value. I love that.<\/p>\n<p><em>A Message from Crestcom:<\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>Crestcom is a global organization dedicated to developing effective leaders for companies all over the world have seen their managers transformed into leaders through our award-winning and accredited leadership development programs. Our signature BPM program provides interactive management training with a results-oriented curriculum and prime networking opportunities. If you\u2019re interested in learning more about our flagship program and developing your managers into leaders, please visit our website to <strong><a href=\"https:\/\/crestcom.com\/training-experts\/\">find a leadership trainer near you<\/a><\/strong>.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>Or maybe you yourself have always wanted to train and develop others. Crestcom is a global franchise with ownership opportunities available throughout the world. If you have ever thought about being your own boss, owning your own business and leveraging your leadership experience to impact businesses and leaders in your community, Crestcom may be the right fit for you. We\u2019re looking for professional executives who are looking for a change and want to make a difference in people\u2019s lives. Learn more about our franchise opportunity on the <strong><a href=\"https:\/\/crestcom.com\/own-a-franchise\/who-we-are\/\">Own a Franchise<\/a><\/strong> page of our website crestcom.com.<\/em><\/p>\n<h2>How Do We Create an Inclusive Culture?<\/h2>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>So how do you, okay, here it is? We\u2019re gonna just simplify it. How do you create an inclusive culture? &lt;Laugh&gt;<\/p>\n<p>LaTonya Wilkins:<\/p>\n<p>Oh my gosh.<\/p>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>And that\u2019s where your book is. And I don\u2019t wanna make it sound in any way that this is just like a one, two, like implement these strategies, especially as we talked about like how mandating isn\u2019t necessarily the way to go, but what are some things that we can do not mandating? What are some things we can do to <strong><a href=\"https:\/\/crestcom.com\/blog\/2020\/08\/14\/episode-35-creating-an-inclusive-workplace-with-inclusion-and-diversity-manager-alicia-jessip\/\">create a more inclusive culture<\/a><\/strong>?<\/p>\n<p>LaTonya Wilkins:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah. So earlier I, so if you are someone that is leading a team. Earlier, I talked about, you know, the three prongs of below-the-surface leadership, also in my book, I talk about different tracks of change. And so I\u2019m assuming most of you that are listening are probably leading teams. And so, let\u2019s take the leadership track. So you could create this on your team. You can, and I think there\u2019s a couple of different ways to kind of get started again, the three prongs below the surface, the leadership, our real leadership empathy and empathetic listening, and then psychological safety. So first, study the real leadership principles I talk about in the book, again, relatable, equitable, aware, loyal, all the things, you know, DEI is kind of ingrained in there. That\u2019s everyday leadership to show up and be a real leader with empathetic listening and empathy.<\/p>\n<p>One of the things that I found is that we\u2019re all capable of being empathetic. We just don\u2019t know how to access that. Right. It\u2019s really hard for a lot of leaders to access that, especially considering the roles that they\u2019re in. Again, leaders are there to fix things. They\u2019re there to make sure that things stay on the tracks. And so one of the things you can do to start with is I challenge all of you to go to your next staff meeting and just sit back and listen and observe your team, observe how they\u2019re interacting, observe who\u2019s fitting in. Who\u2019s not observe if they\u2019re someone dominating, observe if that\u2019s how you want these meetings to go\u2014access empathy. Access, trying to get in other people\u2019s shoes as they\u2019re going through their team meeting this, I, this is so important, cuz this is again, this is how you start accessing empathy. And this is what I call person to belonging listening. So again, if you could do that and you can kind of follow up from there, that is gonna go such a long way with people feeling included. Cause I feel like you listen to them and that you saw them. And especially if there\u2019s someone again, that was getting talked over or whatever.<\/p>\n<p>LaTonya Wilkins:<\/p>\n<p>The third is psychological safety, and this one\u2019s hard, really hard to do. And I will, I will admit that. But one of the things you can do is provide some like an article around psychological safety. There are tons out there. You could provide my chapter on psychological safety. I have a whole chapter on how to create that on a team, give it to your team, have them read it and then come together and say, okay, now that you\u2019ve read a little bit about psychological safety, how can we create that on our team? What are, what, what do you think are, are some of the ways that, that you think we could do this? And again, those are three easy ways. These are three accessible ways to get started with creating a culture of belonging, especially on your team and from there, then you could scale to your organization. But one interesting fact is like when you ask employees about the culture, their culture that they have and whether or not they have a culture of belonging. Usually, they\u2019re gonna answer that question with their team in mind, not their org in mind. So start with your team.<\/p>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah. I mean, absolutely. You could see different ways that that manifests in the culture that maybe makes it not seem like a culture. That\u2019s very like a belonging culture versus on your team, and your leadership might be taking the right actions to be able to make the right environment. I\u2019m curious about the empathetic listening component because I think that, you know, if we wanna deep dive into that in terms of how that derails teams or why you need to start doing it, I think of first the piece of what are all the things that you\u2019re missing just by not slowing down or by having your face down into your phone, reading an email, instead of realizing that you could have someone that\u2019s a top performer that maybe feels discouraged or just not included on their team, that\u2019s actually ready to think, oh, maybe I\u2019m gonna go somewhere else, but you\u2019re not paying attention. You\u2019re not paying attention. So I feel like a lot of this is just right in front of you if you actually take the time to do it. And I think we complicate it again with strategies. What should I be doing? Paying attention. So I just think that\u2019s a huge piece that a lot of people just miss out on like they\u2019re too busy thinking about how can I get budget to, you know, give people more money instead of thinking what\u2019s actually going on in my team right now that could create a bad place or a place where people just don\u2019t feel like they belong.<\/p>\n<h2>Listening Skills are Essential to DEI<\/h2>\n<p>LaTonya Wilkins:<\/p>\n<p>Absolutely. And that\u2019s like there are two different listening ways to listen that I talk about in, in the empathy chapter, once person-to-person listening. And that\u2019s what you were described. The second is person-to-belonging listening, which I talked about earlier. Just looking around the person-to-person, it\u2019s just, there are so many people of you have felt this way, where someone asked you how you\u2019re doing, and you know, they zoned out when you answered it. Right. &lt;laugh&gt; and there\u2019s too much of that going on. And so person-to-person listening is playing things back, you know, matching the energy of the other person. You know, trying to come from a place of curiosity and asking powerful questions. Like all those things are important, and we, frankly, do not do enough of it. As you said, Jenn.<\/p>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>What do you think like from your experience? Why do you think some people are reluctant to maybe come into this conversation? Like I, I would say what are the fears that may be a leader has for wanting to be more, I guess, curious with things, is it a fear of like a loss of control? Is it that they find things that they won\u2019t be able to fix? Because clearly, there\u2019s a reason that people are also afraid to address this in some way. And I\u2019m curious, are there stigmas there stereotypes or just the, what are they afraid of? Why we\u2019re not doing this,<\/p>\n<p>LaTonya Wilkins:<\/p>\n<p>The empathy part? Or all of it?<\/p>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>You know, I think the empathy piece, because it\u2019s, you\u2019re talking about person to person listening, and I sometimes think in leadership it goes against that or counters to traditional leadership, like this, we don\u2019t care about them. Like emotions- they have no place in the work. Like they should just shut that off.<\/p>\n<h2>Start With The Basics\u2014And Practice Them!<\/h2>\n<p>LaTonya Wilkins:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah. You know this is really interesting because I do facilitation for some other companies quite a bit. Right. And one of them came to me and said, well, I don\u2019t know if we wanna do empathy. That seems like a very basic skill. And a lot of the leaders came back and said, that\u2019s too basic for them. I\u2019m like, what? Like they don\u2019t do it. So, so I think that\u2019s what it is. I do think that it\u2019s like when you\u2019re talking about active listening, leaders are like, oh that\u2019s, so that\u2019s basic. And I\u2019m like, wow. Again, and I think Jenn, I don\u2019t blame the leaders. Again. I think it\u2019s like we have these leadership competencies, and they\u2019re like, these big pie in the sky things like strategy, you know, collaboration technology. And so again, the hows are like, oh, of course, I know how to do that. That\u2019s common sense. But this is why we are where we are now. And yeah. That\u2019s why we don\u2019t do it again because there are too many orgs that, that aren\u2019t considering these essential leadership skills again.<\/p>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>I just, I think that this is, I mean, it\u2019s, I know that maybe I\u2019m a little bit passionate and I want to, you know, just asking more questions because this truly is, we\u2019re thinking about even making an impact your organization. Absolutely. Just seeing people, seeing them as individuals and practicing curiosity, or as you had said, even just taking the second to see things from another perspective. What about their request from you? Maybe it isn\u2019t that bananas. If they\u2019re asking for additional time off in the form of equity and support, what about blank, you know, or what are the things that you\u2019re holding onto? Maybe it\u2019s the example of like emotions shouldn\u2019t exist at work, and people shouldn\u2019t show that that maybe actually isn\u2019t relevant in what we need from leaders today. I just, love this conversation because I think we\u2019re truly finally moving forward and having open conversations that address the fact that we are all completely different and we are human beings with feelings, emotions, experiences, so on and so forth. And we want to be seen, I just, I don\u2019t know why, again, we just shut the door on that conversation. But I think the work you\u2019re doing is so important. LaTonya, what would be, you know, knowing that we\u2019ve got to be close to wrapping up. I do wanna ask them where they can get the book, but what would be your final, I guess, tips or just something that you would want to share in closing with the audience to help them, I guess, feel the permission to actually start to find their own way to make a more inclusive culture.<\/p>\n<p>LaTonya Wilkins:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah. So a couple of things I\u2019ll say is we could all do this. Like it\u2019s, it\u2019s gonna take a lot of practice for some of us. It\u2019s gonna take some rewiring, but we can all do this. The second thing is if you\u2019re listening to this and you\u2019re like thinking, oh my gosh, I was that person that thought listening was too basic. That\u2019s okay. We forgive you. And we understand that. A lot of structures and systems and orgs need to, to be changed again to bring some of these principles that I\u2019m discussing to the forefront of leadership, curriculum, approaches, leadership development. We\u2019re not there yet. So that\u2019s okay. So just be forgiving to yourself today, if you are one of those people that was thinking, wow, this is so basic, like this has to do with DEI? I had no idea. Yes, it does. And so that\u2019s okay.<\/p>\n<p>The third thing I would say is I wouldn\u2019t, don\u2019t try to memorize anything again. Like I, I know a lot of times when I was doing talks, especially in 2020, when I was like, every time I did a talk, people were, were like, what could I read? I need to read a bunch of books. I need to do all this. That\u2019s okay and all. But we gave you everything you need today. And you could just, just go instead of reading like 10 books and taking yourself even further away from your team, go out there and practice that empathy that we talked about. Go out there and talk about psychological safety on your team. Go out there and be more curious. Go out there and start practicing real leadership and embracing some of this stuff because this is really where it starts. So again, those are my tips and we could all do this and I I\u2019m, I\u2019m excited to see you do it too. Yes.<\/p>\n<h2>Where to Find LaTonya\u2019s Book, Leading Below The Surface<\/h2>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>Oh my gosh. Thank you so much, LaTonya! So, where can people get your book Leading Below the Surface? Where do they pick that up?<\/p>\n<p>LaTonya Wilkins:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah. So it\u2019s on every site pretty much where you could buy a book. So if you go to <a href=\"https:\/\/latonyawilkins.com\/leading-below-the-surface\/\"><strong>LeadingBelowTheSurface.com<\/strong>,<\/a> just LeadingBelowTheSurface.com, that\u2019s where you could kind of pick where you wanna buy your book. Obviously, it\u2019s on Amazon, and it\u2019s on Bookshop, Target, Barns &amp; Noble. So go to LeadingBelowTheSurface.com, and you can find a direct link.<\/p>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>LaTonya, thank you so much for just sharing your insights. Also, thank you for challenging the way that we look at this and how we can take it on to, you know, be a part of this where we\u2019re feeling like it\u2019s active everyday leadership. I just appreciate you breaking it down into like, a how, not a strategy. I love your perspective, and thank you so much for giving us a different way to look at it and approach it.<\/p>\n<p>LaTonya Wilkins:<\/p>\n<p>Absolutely. Thanks for having me today.<\/p>\n<p>Jenn DeWall:<\/p>\n<p>Thank you so much for listening to this week\u2019s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. It was great to sit down with LaTonya. I really enjoyed our conversation. If you want to connect more or learn more about LaTonya, you can connect with her on LinkedIn, or you can head on over to <strong><a href=\"https:\/\/latonyawilkins.com\/\">LaTonyaWilkins.com<\/a><\/strong>. There you can <strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/1951591844\">purchase her newest book<\/a>,<\/strong> <em>Leading Below the Surface: How to Build Real and Psychologically Safe Relationships With People Who Are Different From You.<\/em> If you enjoy this week\u2019s episode, please don\u2019t forget to leave us a review. And of course, if you have any leadership development needs for yourself or your team, head on over to crestcom.com. We would love to help you develop your skill sets! Until next time.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>DEI and Leading Below the Surface LaTonya Wilkins, Founder of the Change Coaches Intro: Hi everyone. It\u2019s Jenn DeWall. And on this week\u2019s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with LaTonya Wilkins, who is the founder of The Change Coaches, LLC, and LaTonya works with C-Suite and executive leaders, teams where human [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":10,"featured_media":360200,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_et_pb_use_builder":"","_et_pb_old_content":"","_et_gb_content_width":"","footnotes":"","_links_to":"","_links_to_target":""},"categories":[216,199],"tags":[353,338,228,119,152],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v22.5 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>DEI and Leading Below the Surface with LaTonya WIlkins<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Join host Jenn DeWall as she discusses DEI and leadership with LaTonya Wilkins, author of Leading Below the Surface and founder of The Change Coaches,LLC.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" 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