How to Operationalize Kindness in the Multi-Generational Workforce with Phillip Kane

How to Operationalize Kindness in the Multi-Generational Workforce with Phillip Kane

On this week’s episode of the Leadership Habit Podcast, Jenn DeWall talks to Phillip Kane about managing the great resignation by looking at it from a generational perspective. Listen in to learn more about how employee expectations have changed in the multi-generational workforce, and what that means for the future of work.

Phillip Kane is a husband, a father, a businessman, and the author of The Not so Subtle Art of Caring. He has had a successful career in some of the world’s best-known corporations, leading thousands of individuals to create billions of dollars in value. He credits his father, a Polish sales manager and a Nigerian priest with almost every good thing that he has learned about life, leadership and the craft of storytelling. Kane proved for 30 years that no one ever needs to choose between winning and caring for others. He lives in Ohio with his wife, three children, and four wonder-dogs. I hope you enjoy this conversation about how we can show up differently to accommodate the needs of leaders today and, as Phillip would say, operationalize kindness. Enjoy.

Meet Phillip Kane, CEO and Author of The Not So Subtle Art of Caring

Jenn DeWall:  Hi, everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall, and I am so excited to be joined by Phillip Kane. Today on The Leadership Habit Podcast, we are talking about, you know, the topic that we’ve seen for a few months now. Heck, it feels like it’s just been the whole year. We are gonna talk about the Great resignation, but with it, we’re also going to talk about the generational differences and how we might be approaching it, how maybe there are some things that we need to pay more attention to or get a better understanding of, to be able to focus on that retention and engagement.

And I love all things generations, but on the same side, I also hate all things generational, right? It’s that stereotype. So know that Phillip and I are not here to perpetuate stereotypes, but we are here to have a great conversation around understanding the generational lens of how we can approach the great resignation.

So Phillip, thank you so much. You’re taking the time today. I know you’ve got a lot going on outside of work. Just thank you for showing up and giving us your time. I’m very much looking forward to this conversation. I really appreciate, appreciate your leadership approach. So just excited to get it going. So Phillip, welcome to the show.

Phillip Kane:  Thank you, Jenn. It’s my pleasure to be here. Thank you again for having me.

Jenn DeWall:  So you’re the CEO of Grace Ocean. I always love a great origin story. So, Phillip, go ahead. Tell us what you came to be like. How did you come to be the individual that you are today? How did you even become passionate about supporting people, supporting leaders, individuals, and just being human? Tell us a little bit more about your origin story.

Phillip Kane:  Well, most of it I blame on my father. I grew up in the family business. My grandfather was a truck dealer. My dad was a truck dealer. My dad’s brother was a truck dealer. So all I remember from my smallest days was climbing around trucks and being around my dad. Kids grow up, and they wanna be doctors and lawyers and Indian chiefs—I wanted to be my dad. That’s all I remember.

So I went to school at the best college I could find as close to my dad, so I could skip school and be around him. And my dad was, I guess, what you would call a servant leader or a steward of others before there was even a name for it. And so I learned how to lead people from him. And so when I went out into the world and found people leading by roughing people up or by putting a boot on the back of their neck, that was foreign to me because I’d never seen that before.

So I dedicated my life to leading people in a different way, the way that my dad did. And so if I’m passionate about what I do, it’s because I know that there’s a better different way to lead other people because I grew up seeing it from my father.

How the Pandemic Changed the Multi-Generational Workforce

Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. And well, and right now, and I love that too, of just being modeled that way to know that there’s got to be a different way to actually influence and motivate and connect with others. And I think right now, and I’m sure I would love to hear your take on this as well, the pandemic completely shifted through, you know, our des no, not the desire, I was going to say, made it a necessity to adapt and pivot to a new style. No more can people use that traditional authoritative stuff of the past. It’s ineffective.

People are going to leave, and as much as you want to try to continue to use it, you will hemorrhage employees. I’m curious what your take on it is. Because I’ve noticed, and I think a lot of people have, you know, that new coin term, the future of work and how things are completely different now as it relates to the generational perspective and the great resignation. It’s so important for us to understand that what got you here will not get you there anymore. It just won’t. Let’s hear your thoughts on that.

How Organizations Failed the Multi-Generational Workforce in the Pandemic

Phillip Kane:  Well, you’re exactly right. And I, I think what happened during the pandemic was, was really a great realization that occurred before the great resignation and, and now what’s been dubbed quiet, quitting. And we’ll talk a little bit about that in a moment, but we sent everyone home, right? And, and the worst organizations failed to do two things.

First, they failed to tell people what to expect, and then they failed to teach managers who weren’t very good at managing people in person, how to manage them remotely. And so all these folks went home and they had an awful experience and they realized a couple of things. One, that their talent was nearly infinitely transferable, and two, that they didn’t any longer have to accept the unacceptable. And that’s really what sparked this thing that we call the Great Resignation.

And so they started leaving, leaving in search of something better, something kinder, something more encouraging, and they continue to leave. We continue to see resignations in quits over 4 million a month, even in the last report from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. And it’s going to keep happening, to your point, until organizations realize that they have to treat people in a better way than they have been.

Jenn DeWall:  Yeah, I mean, this has been music to my ears. I remember joining the workforce, you know, 2005. So we’ve got a few years in, and I just remember honestly thinking leadership was a myth, that it was this dumb thing that they taught us as kids to help us work together, you know, be better student and servant leaders. And I just was completely deflated by my first experience within, and it wasn’t my first experience with a job.

I’ve worked since I was 12, but my first corporate experience and feeling like this is insane of how people talk to each other, how they treat each other. And I’m curious, I mean, because this is music to my ears, maybe it’s because as a millennial, I just finally have been waiting for this. Like, let’s stop, you know, counting people in what time are you here? It doesn’t matter if you’re productive, but if you’re here early, that’s fine.

I mean, so many of those things that I think are ridiculous. You had mentioned talking to people are no, will no longer willing to, you know, accept some of those grievances, accept some of those things, or accept the treatment. What are some examples that you think of when it comes to mind of what you think people are no longer willing to accept that will make them move?

The Great Resignation is Not Just About the Money

Phillip Kane:  Well, first and foremost, it’s, it’s jobs that, or requirements and jobs that don’t make sense to them that, that don’t add up to, to some productive end or, or incompetent managers or poor treatment. And, and so it’s all of these things. It’s not one thing necessarily. And, and it’s not compensation. A lot of people have said, Oh, these people are just leaving because they want more money. Certainly money’s part of it, but it’s way down the list. And so it, it’s, it’s all of these things that are causing people to say, You know what? I don’t have to put up with this anymore.

And we started at the beginning talking about generational differences. And I think the biggest thing that’s different across the generations is that my generation, I’m a boomer, and to some extent ex we were brought up to believe in the idea of a social contract, that there was something worth putting up with all of this for that there was a pension at the end of this. So there was a gold watch at the end of this that was actually made of gold. And so, we were taught by our parents that, you just had to endure the treatment because there was something at the end of it. And so we stayed with companies for a long time, and we tolerated it.

But part of what happened through oh eight, and part of what happened also during the pandemic is these, I call them kids, they’re really not kids, They’re grown adults. But they, they looked at what was happening and they said, You know what? There is no social contract. These companies have defaulted on their pensions. The watches aren’t actually made of gold. And so there is no reason to put up with poor treatment. There is no reason to put up with incompetent bosses.

There is no reason to put up with instructions that don’t lead to any good outcome for shareholders or customers. And so I’m not going to do that anymore because I don’t have to, because there isn’t any payoff at the end of this for me. And so they just stopped. And as I’ve pointed out and like to point out, they’re just going to keep stopping until they find someplace where it starts to make sense for them again.

Understanding the Challenges of Leading the Multi-Generational Workforce

Jenn DeWall:  What are some of the challenges you think organizations or leaders are struggling with it as it relates to managing the great resignation? Is it more of like, that they’re struggling to be adaptive and their styles? Are there specific characteristics that you notice that they just are holding on to because they thought it was effective and they just don’t wanna let go? But from your perspective, what are some of the challenges that we’re seeing today as it relates to that generational workforce and the great resignation?

Phillip Kane:  I think a great deal of it has to do with the fact that the management styles that are in place today are so heavily ingrained that undoing them is going to have to result in someone admitting that they’re wrong. Whether it’s the board of directors admitting that they’re wrong, whether it’s hiring managers admitting they’re wrong, whether it’s ingrained HR admitting that they’re wrong, whether it’s the white shoe recruiting firms admitting that they’re wrong.

And when I say admitting they’re wrong, admitting that things like gregariousness, a bias for control, perceived charisma, things like that are not actually leadership traits because they’ve hired to those traits for years. And, what they’ve gotten are people that end up being largely incompetent leaders that manage by fear and control that cause these people to ultimately now leave. And so someone’s going to have to admit that leaders who lead with a bias for results but a bias for kindness are more effective leaders.

But someone’s going to have to admit that what they’ve been doing for a hundred or more years is wrong. And it’s very hard for human beings to do that. The second problem is that it’s hard, I think, for people to envision operationalizing kindness. It’s very easy for people to envision operationalizing a bias for control. It’s very easy for people to envision when things go wrong and hold someone immediately accountable in a disciplinary sort of way. But it’s very difficult for people to envision how to operationalize kindness. And so I think that that’s the second part of the problem with getting people to move toward a kinder, more caring environment in the workplace.

Creating a Caring Environment by Operationalizing Kindness

Jenn DeWall:  I think the, you know, both of those points, I love operationalizing kindness because it is like, no more can you just treat people like a means to an end. They’re human beings. They have a life that they’re living, and they’re trying to do their best. We’ve got to, you know, work together in a different way that’s more supportive and conducive to our success and happiness.

I mean, happiness, I feel like, is now an expectation that I have at work. I expect to be happy at work. I do. I don’t expect to be miserable. I didn’t expect to cry on my way home because I had a bad leader. I don’t expect all of those things. But I mean, you hit the nail on the head too at the first one, the unwillingness to maybe realize the mistakes, not wanting to give up, but things worked so great when everything looked like this.

And who did it work great for is what I really want to know. Who did it work for?  If you didn’t have the power or control, who in the heck did it serve? Because if you were on the other side of maybe the not popular or not influential, you didn’t get the same incentives or benefits of that. But yet I worked in a really strong fear-based culture, and this is, you know, over five years ago, and, you know, going back to that, like just that example of watching incompetence climb up the ladder.

And I say that because it became this, Oh, you lead like us, we’re gonna promote you even though you don’t have experience within HR and referencing the person that they put in as an interim chief HR officer didn’t have any experience in HR, was a former project manager, but had the same authoritative leadership style.

They put that individual in place, and all this individual did was lead by fear. And the problem with that is you would go into meetings, and he would have a meeting where he would call us all out, and then he would call out every single person’s mistake. And the turnover numbers were insane. It was like 50% for hr. They were just hemorrhaging. They could not even keep the backbone.

But yet if you went further up the organization to, you know, even I would say their chief operations officer, they loved that individual. They thought he was great because he was hard-pressed, authoritative, and did whatever he wanted, and they didn’t care about the impact that that had. They didn’t even care about the hemorrhaging. And I’m, I know that’s a bold statement, but they didn’t, they put the wrong person there, and they thought that they could hold on and create success by just using power and control.

And you know what? They found out it was ineffective. People left. And you know, obviously, that person’s not where they were today, but it was frustrating to watch because you watched the impact of this really poor leader and their influence just infect the culture of the organization, the engagement of the organization, the happiness I still get incensed by it, Phillip, like I’m just, but it’s, I still see that people don’t wanna see it. They want to pretend that there are no mistakes. That they got it wrong, that you know, hey, maybe what you’re doing actually isn’t working. I don’t know. Like if you would give someone advice on that, like, hey, if you would help them build that self-awareness, how might you approach that with them?

Quiet Quitting and Lack of Engagement in the Multi-Generational Workforce

Phillip Kane:  Well, I think what they have to realize is that there are, there are costs to that sort of behavior. There are, but they’re difficult to measure sometimes, right? There’s cost to turnover, and how do you measure turnover? There’s a cost to lower productivity. I mentioned quiet quitting earlier, and it is kind of an odd name for it. I’m not sure who named it, but quiet quitting is the lowering and lowering of productivity among people who are too scared to quit or too scared to confront the problem.

And so they just lower their level of output progressively until they’re just kind of showing up and doing very little every day. And so they basically quit their job without leaving it. And so they call it quiet quitting. But, there’s a cost to that, right? Utterly unproductive associates who are being managed inappropriately. And so the advice that I would give to people is to look at the engagement of your associates truly, and recognize that there is a huge cost to unengaged associates. And if your associates don’t recognize your place as a great place to work, then you’re not doing it right.

Is it Quiet Quitting or Self-Care?

Jenn DeWall:  Yeah, I mean, I love bringing up the quiet quitting, because prior to, I would say, you know, earlier on in my career, maybe I went through a bout of quiet quitting where I was teed up to get, you know, my masters with the company that had paid for it, I was in the master’s program, but yet I couldn’t get promoted.

And so there’s this piece of, I just started to disengage and, and pull back and disconnect. And whether people realize it or not, quiet quitting is a form of self-protection. I mean, I know that that’s contrary, right? That’s the divided piece. Is it quiet quitting? And is that, you know, the fault of the individual being lazy? Or is it them setting boundaries and saying, enough is enough? And I’m more probably on the latter side of feeling like enough is enough. Like no more. What is our life worth?

And maybe that brings back into that generational perspective, because I, I don’t necessarily think it’s exclusive to millennials that we’re, or Gen Z or any generation for that matter, that says, I just demand normal treatment. To be treated as a human being. But why do you think the door is opened now to be able to actually force that as an expectation? Or I could even say it in a different way. What, from your perspective as a baby boomer, how do you approach that? I mean, I feel like you have to have the same. Yeah, I wanna be treated like a human being. What in the heck? It doesn’t matter what generation I’m a part of, but how would you answer that?

Gen Z Has Kicked the Door Open to a Better Workplace

Phillip Kane:  Well, what I would tell you is I actually believe that Gen Z kicked the door open, and others now are going through it. But Gen Z is unique in that, unlike generations that came before them, they’re tremendously outspoken. They believe very, very strongly in the things that they believe, and they won’t tolerate things that conflict with the things that they believe. And when they see things that are, they open their mouth, and they say things about it, or they act. Where generations before even yours, millennials, millennials were they, they kind of just took it, which was different from boomers who took it for a reason. They took it because it was something at the end. Millennials sort of took it because they were kind of afraid to say anything. Yeah.

But the Gen Zs just kicked the door wide open because they said, You know what? I’m not putting up with this, and I’m going to say something, or I’m going to leave. And other older generations have been the beneficiary of what Gen Z has done because once Gen Z kicked the door open, everyone just started walking out the door. And I think it’s been terrific for things going on in the workforce. And the establishment can claim all they want that it’s just too much Covid [relief] money or it’s just spoiled entitled Gen Zs and millennials, or that it’s a new Dot Com boom, or it’s just retirement age boomers. But it’s none of those things. It’s, it’s bad environments with bad leaders that are driving people to say, I want something different. I want something better, and I’m going to go find it.

We Spend a Third of Our Lives at Work – Make it Worth It!

Jenn DeWall:  Yes. And they deserve to. They deserve to. I am so incredibly passionate about this because we spend a third of our lives at work. Why should we be miserable? Why should we suffer from burnout and overwhelm all of these mental health challenges? Because, you know, even quiet quitting, that’s mental health. Thinking about how we can best protect ourselves to navigate an unsafe environment.

I love this kind of revolution of the employee, which I know even saying that right now, I could get my hand slapped for that of someone saying, Jenn, I can’t believe you’re talking that way. You’re going against how so many organizations or leaders operate. This is offensive. You’re too new. I mean, I see it. Heck, in my role as a speaker, I still get yelled at for even having, Oh, Jenn, you wore jeans or Jenn, you had love in the back of your video, this level of control. You can’t be this person. That’s not what it looks like. Don’t be blank.

And so I know even in saying this, I have this rise of anxiety that’s like, someone’s gonna yell at me for this podcast because it’s going against the grain of how so many people built their success or understood it. I just do not agree with it.

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The Not So Subtle Art of Caring

Jenn DeWall:  Let’s talk about why organizations obviously need to change. And then, going into your book, The Not so Subtle Art of Caring, What can we actually do to retain the employees or attract that new talent? And I should ask, am I too forward with my, like, you know, opinions on this? I hope it’s not too abrasive <laugh>.

Phillip Kane:  No, I don’t think you are. But I think that, that some people can take it that way. And that’s why I think what I was going to say next connects right up with that. Because I think that talk like this can have a tendency to have people feel like they’re, they’re being picked on. And yeah, where I’m coming from— and I think you are too— isn’t to pick on the establishment or to pick on leaders because I don’t think anyone wakes up of a day and says, Gosh, I can’t wait to go into the office today and make the lives of other people miserable and it’s gonna be so great. I’m gonna pick on Joey, and it’s gonna be awesome, right? I don’t think anybody wakes up one day and thinks like that.

But, they go into workforces where they’ve been conditioned to treat people in ways where the equation is failure equals accountability. And accountability looks like hard treatment. And it’s just the equation. And I think that leaders are, to a great extent, trapped in that as well. And, I think that it’s incumbent upon leaders who know in their heart that there’s a better way to treat people to start treating people better because I would submit that it takes no more effort.

In fact, it takes less effort to treat someone with kindness and dignity than it does to rob someone of dignity or to treat someone with less respect. And so I think the operationalizing of all of this starts with people waking up and going into their workplace as leaders and saying that I today am going to start treating people better. And it’s no more difficult than that because people have said, How do you operationalize this? I say it’s simple. You just start being kind to people. And it’s no more difficult than that. It’s simple.

Operationalizing Kindness is Simple: Just Start Being Kind to People

Jenn DeWall:  I mean, I think that that’s important. I’m glad that you transitioned that because, yes, it’s not this blame. I think you said the word conditioned. You know, we model, and we pick up what we see in the workplace. That’s what we’ve known as created success. We adopt that. It doesn’t make you a bad person that you have failed.

There’s been a lot that’s been laid down as to why we are the leaders that we are today. And so I appreciate you saying that because, yeah, people are doing their best. I don’t think people think, I wanna go out and make someone’s day just awful today. I definitely don’t think that, but I wanna shake the ego out of that. That’s like. I think the biggest thing is like. No more can we, can we start just being human? I think that’s my plea. We know it’s not effective.

We actually know for ourselves. We don’t like to be talked to like that or feel like that. Like, so where can we like open that door to operationalize kindness or empathy? And so I just appreciate you saying that. Giving yourself grace. You might have been brought up in a time where this is exactly what you needed to do to create success in your career because those were the norms. Those were the expectations. They’re just different today.

So let’s talk about your book. Let’s talk about your book, and what leaders can do or organ or organizations can do to even begin to retain and just engage and attract the new talent that we all need to keep. And hopefully, find.

Leaders Must Know It’s Not About Them, It’s About The People They Lead

Phillip Kane:  Well, thanks for bringing up my book. I appreciate that. My book was really, more than anything, a labor of love. I had started, I don’t know, 20 years or so ago, writing to people every Friday when the groups that I led got too big to fit into one room. And the way that I wrote to them was about how I wanted them to think about each other and treat each other.

And I think that that’s a great segue into your point and question, Jenn, because helping businesses transform into the sort of organizations that they can become or want to become is, is about recognizing that they need to start attracting leaders who put other people ahead of themselves. Because, and you mentioned it before, the kind of, the formula has always been, and even you mentioned the HR leader who had no talent for HR before, but they were promoted along because they were on some sort of a track.

And so it was made about them, right? You were a superstar, and so and you are great. And so you, you, you, And so it’s drummed into people that they’re great, but conversely, what needs to be done is we need to start drumming into leaders. That it’s not about you, it’s about the people that you lead. And you will become more successful when you make those around you bigger than you. I wake up every day with the thought that I want to make myself really, really small so that I can make other people really, really big. And, if we can make that transition in the workplace by attracting leaders who make it about other people instead of them, then we’ll have rounded the corner on our way to the better world that you and I envision here,

Jenn DeWall:  Oh my gosh, a better world. I just love the expression operationalizing kindness. Really thinking, how could so many things be impacted if we just showed or changed the way that we showed up? And I’m talking about people’s, again, their quality of life, their happiness, how they show up to their families, how they even, you know, the fulfillment that they have. Those things, It’s no longer your time, your dime to try to integrate those things. It’s about seeing that whole person. Do you have any, like, what specific tips would you have to maybe approach this if you are going to say, we’re starting now? We want to engage or attract a new team. Here are some tips that I would start with.

To Start Operationalizing Kindness, Treat Everyone with Dignity and Respect

Phillip Kane:  Well, for me, it has to start with everyone in the organization treating each other better. And so, first and foremost if I were a leader wanting to change that culture, it would be about a couple of things. It would be about making sure that the organization understood that we were on a path to making this a great place to work. And that has to include everyone in the organization treating each other with kindness because it can’t just be about the leaders showing up and treating each other with kindness, respect, and dignity. It has to include everyone in the organization treating each other with kindness, respect, and dignity.

Because the leader can’t do it by themselves, right? Because no more than if you think about the, the organizations of today where, where the leader is the only one acting poorly, everyone’s leaving, right? So a poor leader can’t make an entire organization poor by themselves, right? No more than a great leader can make an entire organization great by themselves. So it has to be a situation where a great leader encourages everyone in the organization to treat each other with kindness. And so I wouldn’t make it any more complicated than that, that it has to be about making this a great place to work. And that has to begin and end with everyone in the organization treating each other with dignity and respect.

Jenn DeWall:  I love that. It’s not complicating it. It’s not that hard. It’s not that hard. What! I mean, how do you think we got so far away from the basic, like the golden rule, right? How do you treat people, how do you want to be treated. How do we complicate it so much from your perspective?

Choose Kindness Over the Expediency of Discipline

Phillip Kane:  Well, I think it’s the expediency of discipline, right? Think about the way that we were all brought up. Those of us who, especially who were boomers, right? It was just if you stepped outta line,  you got the stick. That transferred into the workplace, right? You, you, you miss an objective, you get the stick, you step outta line, you get the stick. And so it’s just the expediency of discipline and then that, that transfers into a whole number of poor behaviors.

And soon enough, the dignity of the associate is lost in all of that. Where if we just started with the dignity of the associate as more important than anything, then you don’t get that expediency of discipline. You get more of the expedience of care or the expedience of kindness and, and the whole thing is turned on its head for the better,

Jenn DeWall:  For the better. I wanna go one last time before we wrap up just into your book, The Not So Subtle Art of Caring and talking about, you know, what is this book? It’s a labor of love for you, but it really was a testament to your true leadership style. So tell our audience a little bit more about this book.

Proof That Kindness Works in the Workplace

Phillip Kane:  Well, what I, what I tried to do with the book was to, to use real live artifacts, which were the letters that I wrote to people over the course of 20 years to show them that this isn’t just a theory. That this isn’t just an idea that this can actually be done because I think it would be easy enough for people to look at a book like this and say, Well, that’s very nice, but it’ll never work. Or Isn’t that cute? Particularly if, if it had been written by someone who had never actually done anything in business before.

But what I wanted to do with the book was to be able to say, Hey, look, here is actual proof from actual people over the course of a long, long time in businesses that you’ve heard of before, where this not only worked but produced extraordinary results. And so, for me, that’s really what the book is. It’s kind of a manual of sorts for people that, that want a different, better way to lead other people with real-life proof from real-life people and real-life businesses that it actually works

Jenn DeWall:  Well. And these letters, you wrote them, what was the frequency that you wrote them again,

Phillip Kane:  Every Friday!

The Number One Currency in the Multi-Generational Workplace is LOVE

Jenn DeWall:  Every Friday, you would write an email to your team or organization and what was one of your favorite messages that you would write in these letters? Or do you have one that stands out to you?

Phillip Kane:  I don’t know if I have a favorite, but, but I think if, if you, you boil them all down to one thing, it, it was about love. And I tell people that because I think a lot of people that write about human relationships at work will convince you that trust is the greatest currency between human beings in the workplace. And I would tell you that while trust is tremendously important, the number one currency between human beings in the workplace is love.

And love is not strong like. Love is love. And if, if you can achieve love for your associates and across your associate base, there is nothing you can’t accomplish. And I’ve seen it before. And so, for me, if I distill everything from every letter that I ever wrote to anybody ever about, that’s what it’s about. It’s about love.

And to me, that’s the most important thing that any leader can ever do for anybody he ever leads is to love them. And that’s why one of the rules that I have in that book, and it’s a rule that I shared with my kids from their youngest age when they were old enough to pay attention to me, was to love the one you’re looking at. And if we can just do that, if we can just wake up every day and just love the one we’re looking at, holy cow, there aren’t many problems we can’t solve together.

Where to Find More From Phillip Kane

Jenn DeWall:  No kidding. I love that message. Phil, thank you so much for coming on the show. How can our audience get in touch with you?

Phillip Kane:  They can follow me on Twitter @ThePhillipKane, or they can learn more about me in the book at

Jenn DeWall:  Phillip , thank you so much for just even closing out with the reminder that it’s gotta stop complicating it, start getting human operationalized kindness, show up with love! Love the person that’s in front of you. Any last thing that you would wanna share with our audience?

Phillip Kane:  Talk love. So, get out there and love the one you’re looking at.

Jenn DeWall:  My gosh, love the one you’re looking at. Phillip Keen, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. It was a pleasure to have you.

Phillip Kane: Likewise. Thank you, Jenn. I enjoyed it.

Jenn DeWall:  Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of the Leadership Habit Podcast. I just loved Phillip’s disposition. I loved how he approached it. And again, this topic can feel a little uncomfortable, but we have to just get back to being human to operationalize kindness as he had said. And if you want to connect with Phillip, if you want to get his book, you can head on over to Amazon there. You can purchase the Not So Subtle Art of Caring, and you can also head on over to his website, And of course, if you enjoyed today’s podcaster, if you want to share this information with someone, please do share a, leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service.

Jenn DeWall:  And finally, if you feel like we’re ready to make some investments or I wanna make a change to myself, I want to show up and be the best leader that I can be. Head on over to We would love to connect with you to learn more about your leadership needs and to give you the tools that you need to lead successfully today. Thank you so much for listening. Take care of yourself. Until next time.