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Executive Loneliness and Mental Health with CEO and Author, Nick Jonsson
Jenn DeWall:
Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Nick Jonsson to discuss a very important topic, how to overcome executive loneliness. Nick Jonsson is the co-founder in managing director of one of Asia’s premier networking organizations, the Executives Global Network, or EGM for short Singapore, a confidential peer group network providing more than 600 senior executives and business owners, a safe haven to share their challenges, receive support, and learn from one another. Nick’s passion for mental health awareness paved the way for Nick to author his first number one international best-selling book, published in April 2021: Executive Loneliness: The 5 Pathways to Overcoming Isolation, Stress, Anxiety, and Depression in the Modern Business World. And today, Nick and I will be talking about how you can overcome executive loneliness.
Meet Nick Jonsson, Author of Executive Loneliness
Jenn DeWall:
Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And today, I am sitting down with Nick Jonsson to talk about an extremely- or what I would argue is an extremely important topic. We are going to be talking about on the podcast today executive loneliness, which is something that many of you might feel like you’ve experienced, or maybe as a leader, you just feel like you don’t really have the support or the confidence. And so today, we have Nick Jonsson to talk all about his book, executive loneliness, how we can address it, how we can identify it, and then what we can do to reduce that executive loneliness to help people feel included. Nick, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. The Leadership Habit today. We are so happy to have you and you joining us from another portion of the world today! Nick, where are you joining us from?
Nick Jonsson:
Hey, good morning, Jenn. I’m dialing in from Singapore. It’s 7:00 am in the morning, the sun is about to go up, it’s fantastic to be here with you. Thank you so much for raising this important conversation today.
Jenn DeWall:
Oh my gosh. Thank you for writing a book on it. I think, you know, I mean, I actually, before we dive into it, because I know I’m going to go so many different ways, but Nick, how, what did your journey look like? How did you get to where you are today?
Nick Jonsson:
So I was born in Sweden, and then I actually went to study in Australia at university. And after that, I worked for almost 20 years in senior management positions in Asia. And through that, I realized when I was a senior executive at the top. I could feel many times it was quite lonely in the decisions. And I made some decisions by myself, big decisions that, when I’m looking back at them, were perhaps not the best decisions. So when I realized this and I went through some very challenging times myself, and when I came through them, looking back at this situation, I realized that I wish I had some support when I was there at the top of these organizations, making the decisions. So that’s when I decided that I needed to do something here. And finally to add to this, Jenn, a friend, a colleague of mine, another senior executive, died of suicide during this time. And that’s when I decided to make it my mission to really go out here and destroy the stigma we have surrounding mental health.
Jenn DeWall:
Yes, let’s destroy it! And hopefully, this episode will be another way that we’re going to help people understand that, you know, it’s okay to ask for help. It’s okay to experience mental health challenges. You are not alone. And I’m just so happy, you know, that you are taking, obviously, that story of losing someone so near to you is tragic and how many lives could be saved just by having the conversation. Out of curiosity. What inspired you to write your book on executive loneliness?
Nick Jonsson:
So Jenn, as I started to dig into this topic. And the first thing I did was to do a survey, and I’m fortunate that I’m now the managing director and co-founder of the biggest peer network in age share for senior executives. So I sent out an anonymous survey to this network and asked them basically how they felt about stress, anxiety, and loneliness at work. And I was quite shocked with the findings, and they were also aligned with the global statistics that 30% of executives are lonely. So if 30% are feeling lonely and isolated, then I want to dig deeper. So I then started to interview them also one on one. As for every interview I had, I was more and more shocked as I uncovered what was basically beneath there. And so it’s actually through these surveys and interviews which formed the foundation for this book.
30% of Executives Felt Isolated—And That Was Before the Pandemic
Jenn DeWall:
Wow! 30%! I think that’s a high statistic of just feeling, you know, maybe like you’re on an island. And I know that I struggle if I ever feel, you know, alone. I know my personality style lends it to wanting to connect and collaborate with others. But I can only imagine because you have, at that top level of executive leaders, you likely have some of that, you know, the stress, the pressures that performing at that level in an organization, but then feeling I’m alone and I have to do it all right. Or I’m sure you talked about making decisions. I have to make the right decision, but how do I know? Why do you think it’s important that we address this topic?
Nick Jonsson:
Well, it is certainly during these times also with the pandemic, because the 30% I mentioned was before the pandemic, and I re-did the survey with the same audience now, also during the pandemic, and in December 2020, the number had doubled to 60%. So here we also see, you know, that the loneliness for senior executives has doubled since the beginning of the pandemic. And that was also the perfect timing for me to launch the book last year to really have this as a conversation starter. Because this is what the reality is- the executives are just lonely in the decisions, and they also definitely don’t wanna talk to anyone about it. And the other research I found was that 84% of them would not feel comfortable sharing about their loneliness. They wouldn’t express it to someone in the organization, again, due to the stigma.
The Stigma of Executive Loneliness
Jenn DeWall:
So what do you think it would take her, I guess that stigma? Let’s go into that a little bit more. Why do we think that people just avoid talking about it or don’t bring it up? Is it all just the stigma, or I guess what is the stigma telling them that makes them reluctant to want to talk about it?
Nick Jonsson:
Well, especially here, if you think about that, I’m based in Asia, Singapore. And it’s the regional hub, basically. So if you have been appointed as a regional director for big international firms, and you are running perhaps 20 different companies in Asia, you are the one who’s supposed to be able to handle all the pressures, handle all the, all the work and the different challenges in the region you’re trusted and paid to do that job. So if you’re coming back then to telling your head office back in the US, for example, about your problems, they don’t want to hear about it. They don’t, and you are there to do the job. And that is how many of them feel scared, and they don’t wanna share about it, and so on. And just to add to this, Jenn. The survey findings also found that 75% of them also do not seek any help about it. That means that 84% then are not talking about it in the company. 75% are not even going to ask for professional help. They won’t go and see a psychologist or a doctor because, again, they are scared perhaps that someone will find out.
Jenn DeWall:
Which is that part makes me, you know, just unbelievably sad to know that there are people, you know, I don’t doesn’t matter what their title is to know that someone is struggling and might be experiencing these mental health signs or symptoms, but yet they’re not asking for help. And I think that makes sense because there still are a lot of organizations or firms that maybe you still think that mental health should be something that’s dealt with outside of work, and that work somehow doesn’t have anything to do with it. I, I don’t know why that has come to be or why that ever was somewhat of an expectation that you didn’t have mental health at work. I don’t know. What do you see? Do you feel like it’s more of a, is it an individual or is it really that, that organization not creating the psychological safety, or not breaking down that taboo of what mental health looks like? What do you think it’s been the individual and how they were raised that they weren’t supposed to talk about that?
Nick Jonsson:
Yes, Jenn, it is very much how we are raised. It’s always been that its sort of this stigma and the taboo topic to talk about, and we’ve carried this with us. And then as we wanna protect ourselves in our career, we don’t want, perhaps that colleagues should gossip or find out about it. So we are trying to protect it, and we’re keeping it inside us. Because also, perhaps we don’t wanna burden people around us, but there’s some light here as well, Jenn, with the pandemic. And that is that while a lot of the counseling and therapist was but you had to go visit a physical location before, the fact that we are on Zoom now, a lot of these sessions can happen anonymously. You can lock yourself in your office during the lunch break and have a one-on-one session with the therapist. And that is actually what I’ve included in my book Executive Loneliness. In the last part of the book, I have a lot of resources, contacts and hotlines, and it’s so much support available that most of it are actually free support groups. And so on that, you can join anonymously to get this help. So this is at least a positive move, Jenn.
The Warning Signs of Workplace Loneliness
Jenn DeWall:
Yes. I think you bring up a great point that the pandemic really maybe opened the doors to make therapy accessible in maybe a more confidential setting. They could do it, and it could fit into the schedule a little bit easier. I know I personally have seen my therapist over a zoom call. I don’t think it was actually Zoom. It was a different video call software, but I loved it because then I could still see my therapist talk about my challenges, and Hey, I didn’t have to deal with the traffic on the way to get there. You know, it’s convenient, but I appreciated that, you know, Nick, how do you help people understand? Because I think there’s that other piece where maybe people are a little oblivious, or maybe they just aren’t sure how to recognize it. So what are some signs that you might be experiencing workplace loneliness?
Nick Jonsson:
Well, Jenn, you’re absolutely right. Many people will also deny it even to themselves; perhaps it’s very hard to know who’s suffering. And in my book, I call it a smiling depression because it’s are true. If you’re a successful business person, you’re hiding behind that smile, that facade. But it’s also true. Jenn, if you think about all the celebrities and we see so many of these days stepping forward, though, to say that they actually were suffering or are suffering. So in that sense, it’s very hard to find out who’s actually going through some challenges, but there are a few things to look for. One is definitely if they are isolating themselves if they’re cutting themselves off from groups. If they’re not showing up when they are supposed to, that’s one warning sign. If you arrange, for example, a coffee morning with the ladies and the same person, don’t show up a few times. That’s one warning sign that we see.
Others can be that the person is losing or gaining a lot of weight, perhaps losing interest in hobbies. If they used to cook, if your husband used to cook every Tuesday night for 20 years, suddenly he stops this, then something is going on. Or perhaps if you used to play guitar for many years every day, there was your habit that you did that well, for now, you stop this, or a mother perhaps is losing interest in parenting for her baby someone who you see pick up some bad habits. Addictions. We have seen gambling. We have seen alcohol, drugs, addiction and habits all spiking through the pandemic. So if you see some of your friends or loved ones, you perhaps starting to drink too frequently, that’s something to look for. And the last one is, yeah, if the anger and temperament obviously are linked to all of this. So if you see someone who’s losing their temper too frequently, those are all signs to see if you can try to help.
Jenn DeWall:
Yeah. And I can relate to some of those. I can think about the peak, maybe peak stress times throughout my career, or with different positions where I definitely can relate to the isolating. And I think from my experience isolating, if I’ve ever felt excluded or not the valued or not enough, right? That could be a result of the cultural feedback. It doesn’t matter. Then I know, even though I’m a social person, my natural tendency is to want to avoid, to not be seen, to just be on my own, to do my job, you know, come in, leave, and hopefully do it all unseen. Initially, that isolation for me, I think felt it felt like it was the right thing to do. It felt like I was trying to help myself, but every time I did that, I would actually just be making myself feel worse because I, I want to connect with others. And I don’t know if any of our listeners can relate with that feeling like we do it initially out of a beautiful place of self-protection, but then we don’t recognize that we’re actually committing more self-harm that could be making it worse. I’m curious what is your take on that?
Smiling Depression and Executive Loneliness
Nick Jonsson:
Yes, it’s very interesting, Jenn and indeed. And when I went through my challenges myself a few years ago, I realized that I had looked lost the connection within myself. If you cannot feel connected with yourself and well and happy with yourself, how can you possibly connect and feel great with another person? It’s just impossible. So that means that you can actually feel lonely in the middle of the room of your family and friends because you lost it inside you. So that explains exactly what you just mentioned and that you were even in if you were with your friends and so on, you didn’t feel connected at that moment. So, therefore, we have to start the journey of recovery internally, and once we have recovered internally, then perhaps we can add on the external relationship. So it’s a journey we walk through, and I take it actually in my book. I outline it as five different steps. It’s like a pathway to follow, and it starts within before you can go external.
Jenn DeWall:
My gosh, let’s go. Let’s go into that. I would love to talk about how do you recover. And I mean, I think the other important piece that you had mentioned or implied is that wherever you are right now if you’re reflecting on this and you’re maybe identifying yourself as experiencing this or feeling like you’re having some symptoms of mental health, know that you’re not alone and that this doesn’t determine who you are, you know, for the rest of your life. I think that’s a piece I wanna go into. How can you overcome it? But there are so many people, or I don’t know if you’ve ever had that experience where you feel a tremendous amount of shame or just that feeling of what is wrong with me for having these feelings? That self-judgment that comes in so strong. And I think in how I experience depression and anxiety is again, I’m just piling on.
Jenn DeWall:
I might have depression and anxiety, which I do, but then I feel a tremendous amount of shame, or I am, you know, fundamentally flawed or something because I have it. And I love that you talked about kind of that. I forget how you phrased it, the smiling depression because I’m often one of the people that they might think, oh my gosh, but she’s happy. And she laughs, and she’s smiles. Hey, that just means that I may not be sharing it. And I am pretty, you know, I, I have the outlets that I do talk about that, but I’m often one person that people think she’s too happy to be depressed. She’s too happy to have that. And that’s, you know, you can’t just assume that because someone’s putting on that happy disposition, that they’re never going to experience something like that. I don’t know if you see that where people are just like, I couldn’t possibly be that! No way!
Nick Jonsson:
Yes. That’s absolutely true, Jenn. Yeah. I call it the smiling depression in my book, and it, it, it’s definitely true. And especially if you look at famous people, successful people, they are trained, and they can really hold it. You can never ever see anything. And that’s always the first sad thing when we lose someone, we, everyone would first say, oh, we had no idea that he was so happy. He looked so great. And, and so on. That’s always the same story. And it’s just so sad. So it’s very true, Jenn. It’s impossible to see who’s actually smiling, smiling, and then suffering behind that.
The 5 Pathways to Overcoming Executive Loneliness
Jenn DeWall:
And so let’s talk about how do you overcome it? How do you begin if you’re seeing yourself in this story, or maybe noticing some ways that you’re, you know, pulling yourself or moving and isolating, or if you’re picking up different habits or losing interest, how do you start to overcome it? Where what’s that starting point look like?
Nick Jonsson:
So that’s exactly what I laid out then in my book, and I, through my interviews and the surveys and talking with executives, also interviewed a lot of executives who have gone through it themselves. And since I also went through my own recovery, but the first step though, if I talk you briefly through the five steps, the first step is taking stock. It is about writing down what’s going on in your life. You have issues like in my case. For example, I had picked up too much alcohol. I gained weight from that. My blood results were not good. So I had to go and see a doctor later on. So the first step is taking stock. The second then is asking for help. I went to the doctor. So if you perhaps I’ve taken stock that you have some anxiety attacks and so on, then it is to talk to a therapist.
Nick Jonsson:
It is then asking for help. So then the third step is getting healthy. So really removing the illnesses or whatever you have in your body so that you are well internally. And then the fourth step is nurturing healthy relationships. So that’s about once you’re healed. Then on the first step, internally only on the fourth step, you can go externally to repair the relationships. Perhaps you have avoided people, perhaps you have avoided your friends. Perhaps also because you’ve not been well, you might have said something bad to some friends. Maybe you made some enemies, and it’s time to repair those relationships so that you can feel better about yourself. And then the final step I say is about finding your purpose in life. What is it that excites you? And from there on things, things really follow.
Taking Stock of Where You Are
Jenn DeWall:
I wanna go back to step one, you know, taking stock of where you are in the moment because I think that there’s the piece around, self-awareness where I think people still may not recognize that they’re showing up in this way. And so how do you teach that person that’s been taught to, you know, not pay attention to your emotions, to keep those out of the workplace? How do you help them recognize? I’m curious if you have any tips to help them understand the feelings that they’re having, even though they’ve been told maybe their whole life that they shouldn’t have those feelings.
Nick Jonsson:
Yeah. So, Jenn, I had the pleasure of going through An anonymous 12 step program and taking stock was a big part of that. There, it was called a moral inventory. So the first step is then taking, in my case, I had the pleasure of going through a 12 step recovery program, and in the program, we were actually guided to do this. And there, we were given an empty spreadsheet in Excel, and we were asked to write down everything. And this was then called a moral inventory. So we had to spend a few weeks really writing everything we could think about. And, and then we would talk that through with someone who’d gone through it before, and they would be guiding us.
Jenn DeWall:
I got. I love that. And maybe even taking stock of what are the things that are keeping you up at night, the things that, you know, won’t allow you to fall asleep or what your triggers are throughout the day. And why are you triggered? What’s coming up for you? I think that’s the piece that people forget to bridge the gap. They might understand that they’re triggered or something happened, and they reacted in a certain way, but then they don’t realize that they can control the trigger. I think going through and writing all of those down is a fantastic way to just start to be curious with yourself. And I know that you’re not saying this, so I, and I wanna reinforce it. You’re not saying to write it all down to judge yourself. So when you’re starting to do this, it’s not so you can find this piece of paper and say, wow, really getting things wrong in life. No, it’s to understand what could be at the undercarriage, what could be the things that are keeping you stuck or, you know, making it challenging. It’s not to say, you know, to come to a conclusion that in some way, you’re not enough; it’s to say, to come to a conclusion, maybe this is an opportunity to do something about this.
Nick Jonsson:
Absolutely. And then later on in, in this step four there, to repair relationships you are actually coming back to that list and, and, and making amends for relationships that you had perhaps broken. And what I was surprised about in that first step, when I wrote down this inventory, was that I was after to go back to my childhood to really go deep inside myself. It might be things that, you know, you uncover then that happened a long time ago. And there was one particular incident with my sister I wrote down, and I can remember that happening a few years ago. And it, it was just an incident. We were at the dining table, and my son was quite young at the time, and my sister gave him a Coca-Cola, and he had never had a soda in his whole life, and I remember becoming quite upset, and I stormed off the table, and I just left. I didn’t say anything. And that incident had stayed with me for many years, and I felt so bad about it, but I never apologized for it. So I went back to my sister, and I made amends and apologized for that just recently, actually. And I was so surprised when I mentioned it to her that she couldn’t even remember the incident. She had forgotten all about it. For her, it was nothing for me. I walked around carrying this burden within my heart for a few years, avoiding my sister a little bit. I felt that we were not so close, and it was all in my mind. So after I made that amends, that meant our relationship flourished again.
Jenn DeWall:
Oh, I, that is a really great example of, you know, the importance of, I guess, I think there’s that piece of fact-checking. I know one of the things that I’m sure I see with clients, I know I’m sure you do too, is that it can feel so true to us because it’s inside of our brain. It’s the story that we’re writing in, reinforcing every day that it becomes the difference between true and the truth. And your truth was that your sister was upset with you. And I’m sure, so many people can relate to those moments where we might have had an overreaction. We didn’t show up as the person that we wanted, and we just felt that guilt and shame or frustration with ourselves, but then to think, Hey, did I actually check this? Did I confirm whether or not this story is real? And then going there and talking to your sister and finding that she didn’t, that was not a moment in her way or in her life in the same way that it was in yours. She wasn’t up at night thinking about that. What a beautiful gift. How did that, I guess? What type of release did you have you found out from your sister that she wasn’t, you know, that wasn’t something that she was holding onto? What did that do for you by finally going in and checking that out?
Nick Jonsson:
Oh, it makes you sleep much better at night, Jenn! And just as these, you know, you, the boxes and I went through about 30, 40 of these instances, it might have also been another story, you know, where I was laid off from my job for whatever reason. And I had resentments against my previous boss and later on, had to go back to him now and have another cup of coffee and discuss this, you know, what happened and to just clear the situation, and for every like that, something just lifted from my shoulders, and I felt lighter. I felt better. And again, yeah, I slept better at night, so it doesn’t take much. It takes about, you know, just looking back at that at that inventory. And then later on going over them one by one and ticking the boxes. But I want to say one thing, I was blessed that I had someone who done it before, who took me through this, but Jenn, this is what all the coaches are there for as well. There’s so many people who can help us if, if we don’t know how to do this. And in my book, I also have some tips and tricks how you can do it.
Jenn DeWall:
Yeah. I wanna go into talking about the resources that you have!
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Practice Asking for Help
Jenn DeWall:
What was step two? So taking stock, where do we land that on step two? Because I wanna dive into that a little bit more in terms of how you can go through it. And I had to come back to taking stock. Because I think that’s the one that people still may not realize.
Nick Jonsson:
Yes. So step two is asking for help. So in my case, then I definitely needed to see a doctor because I was not healthy, I had not eaten well, I stopped the exercise. I gained a lot of weight, and yeah, I was consuming too much alcohol, and I was shy about it, but here seeing the doctor, I had to be honest because it was clear on the blood results. So actually didn’t
Jenn DeWall:
Yeah, you can’t get ahead of that one. The doctor knew something wasn’t right!
Nick Jonsson:
So then, I needed to seek help also for my alcohol problem. So I went to see also support group that helped me with alcohol addiction that I had picked up during this time. And through that, I gave a lot of confidence, and I started to address other areas in my life. I had, of course, then some issues, as I mentioned with relationships, and there, I also needed some professional help. I had gone through a divorce during this time, and my relationship with my ex-wife was not the best my son lived with her. So I also need to see a family, and we worked through everything, and I also repaired all those relationships and we have a very, very good contact and good relationships today.
Jenn DeWall:
That’s a, I really appreciate you sharing, not only being vulnerable and sharing the challenges or obstacles that you had gone through but also, you know, showing what it can look like on the other side, when we actually, instead of maybe just worrying about it or stressing about it. When we actually maybe would it be taking responsibility for it and saying, you know, asking for help? That’s what you’re saying is, you know, recognize it. Or one of my favorite quotes is you have to own it to control it. If you don’t own it, then you don’t get to do anything with it. Then it’s going to keep controlling you. And once you can own that and ask for help, but again, do you think, why do you think people don’t ask for help? I know this could go into, you know, the stigma with it, but why else don’t we ask for help? Because we talked about a few of those instances, I would love to talk a little bit more about this because I think it is a big area where people get stuck.
Nick Jonsson:
Yeah. They don’t even know what they should ask for help with. Because if you didn’t do step one, if you didn’t do that inventory, you don’t know what you have. It’s like, imagine if you’re running a, a, a store, but you don’t know what you have in stock. How can you even sell something? Right. So it’s here that in order to ask for help, you have to have it on this piece of paper and really analyze it and then go list by go one by one and ask for help and sorting every single step out and don’t skip anything. You have to be absolutely brutal with yourself and be honest with yourself and say to yourself, time to stop this bull and, and just, you know, really address it one by one.
And as I said, not everything has to cost money because I know a lot of listeners may think, oh, that’s too expensive, out there are so many anonymous charity organizations addressing these issues. If it’s overeating, if it is smoking, whatever it is, there are so many networks are there to help you and go to those networks and, and, and ask for help. But the challenge of think, Jenn and here is the core issues that people are just scared to ask for help. So we need to practice that muscle. And that’s what I did by seeing the doctor then an anonymous group for the alcohol issue. And that gave me the confidence to address my relationship with my ex-wife with my son. And from there, I didn’t stop. I just continued to address everything I had on the list and just felt better about it.
Jenn DeWall:
I think that’s, you know, asking for help. It’s I think, you know, again, people don’t ask for it, they feel like there’s some type of judgment or they’ve created that story, and it’s gotten worse and worse. And I feel for me, I initially, I think when I suffered in silence, that’s when I tried to repress or I would just be driving home from work and I’d be crying or feeling that I would, I would try to hide it. And then I feel like it would be worse. Like I would almost be that much more reactive. I would kind of be that volcano. So then, you know, when you’d got to that next layer and I actually couldn’t keep it in anymore, I would explode. But then, every time I exploded, I felt better. And I think my goal with my mental health is now starting to say and give myself that, you know, permission I can ask for help.
The Importance of Being Vulnerable
Jenn DeWall:
I can talk about my emotions. I can talk about being triggered by something. I deserve to have a space to have and hold my emotions. And now that I’ve given myself that, I think it’s easier for me to talk about other things because I don’t paint them in the way that I used to, as something that makes me flawed, wrong, less than their feelings that I’m having in a moment in time. Some of them might, you know, go back to my childhood or different traumas and experiences. But I now try, I try so hard to address things at the moment because I know that if I don’t, that it obviously will be the volcano, but then every single time I address them, things just feel better or things get resolved in a different way, or there’s a different level of understanding and curiosity that I can have for those that I’m interacting with.
I don’t know. I mean, I feel like you also get forgiveness when you can let things go, and you know, not holding that resentment, which yeah—going back to the relationships, the avoiding step four, right. But things, how can we go back and make amends? How can we think about that? And you likely have hurt someone in your life or not shown up in an ideal way. Again, we’re perfectly imperfect. I think. What do you think that that, or I guess, how do you notice and do you notice this from you where you sit in the executives, you, you oversee, is there a strong notion of that perfectionism of, I have to be everything to everyone. I have to do it all right. You know, right now, and then I’m not gonna admit a mistake because then it means I’m not perfect. So then that means I’m not going to address and try to nurture and, you know, maintain that relationship with someone. I don’t know. Do you see perfectionism in your side, like in the interactions in the or individuals that you work with?
Nick Jonsson:
Yes, certainly Jenn,
Jenn DeWall:
Or is it just a US-centered viewpoint? I have no idea. I, this is what I love to ask these questions.
Nick Jonsson:
Yes. No, certainly Jenn, no, this is indeed a global thing. And perhaps it’s even a bigger thing in Asia. Imagine if you are an ex-pat coming from the US, you’re living and working in Asia, perhaps you stay a little bit in your ex-pat bubble. You don’t integrate exactly with the locals, perhaps due to language, cultural differences and so on. So there’s a much bigger distance already between you and the colleagues in your office. You might have less understanding for each other. So, therefore, there will be more conflict, more misunderstandings and even more challenges as well in the relationships. And there will be times when you perhaps are too busy and you, you are laying off people, but you might not do it in the right way. And you’re probably hurting a lot of people along the way. And if you don’t do that in a nice, or in, in the correct way, then it’ll come and hound you later on, and people will feel bad about it. And I remember when I was laid off from one job, I was crying, but also, my boss was crying. And that’s perhaps is how things are right. And the, we just need to try to do it in a less harmful way for the other party. But we have to remember that if we don’t do it in the best way, then we are only gonna hurt ourselves because we are human beings, after all.
Jenn DeWall:
Yes. And why do we forget that sometimes? Everyone is doing their best. That we all have challenges that we all have feelings. We’re humans. I think it’s so interesting in the era of leadership that we forget to give ourselves grace for being a human being that is someone that is going to do their best but ultimately won’t always make the best choices. It might not say the right communication. That’s the reality of life. I, you know, we don’t get to get away from that or escape that, but I know we’re gonna get into our, like before we get into a final question, I want to kinda go back to step five. Purpose. How is purpose important to being able to manage executive loneliness, to help in that connection? Why is a purpose for having one a significant part of that?
Nick Jonsson:
Well, I think that when you are a senior executive or a business owner, and you’re running something, many senior executives have a very big ego, and many people are used to being the one to tell everyone what to do. And I think that this is one of the challenges when we’re talking about this topic because it’s very hard for a senior executive to admit their mistakes. And they believe that they run the show to the point where perhaps, they’re not grounded enough. And that’s what we see many times. That, you know, they, they are perhaps too bossy and not, not open for suggestions and so on. And therefore, you know, it, it’s very hard for them to admit any failures they have or any challenges they have. So when it comes to purpose, I believe it’s important to imagine that you are not the most powerful person in the world. You’re not the one running the show. That you have to believe, and what I’m coming to is that there is a power greater than yourself. Are you the center of the universe? Then you ought to get a lot of trouble for it. That is my fair sense of purpose.
Jenn DeWall:
No, you have to know that’s your grounding. That’s your compass of understanding how to show up. And I don’t know if we can put something in there about within your purpose, also allow yourself to be imperfect because yeah, you’re not, you know, rewriting that definition of what it means to be a success, a successful executive or leader. It doesn’t mean doing 100% of the things, right? 100% of the time, it means and curious, leading with empathy, continuing to learn and grow. There are so many more things that that can mean. So let’s bring it back to what you can do. Maybe if you’re noticing someone in your organization that’s going through maybe symptoms of mental health, how do you support others? How can I as a leader? How can you, as a leader, can we support one another to address and address these mental health challenges?
Addressing Mental Health in an Organization Starts at the Top
Nick Jonsson:
Well, the challenge is Jenn. If you don’t have a relationship with this person built up by now and you see someone who’s suffering, they’re most likely not gonna share anything with you. So it’s very important to be proactive here and break down these walls and the barriers beforehand to really build warm relationships. And it all starts with you being vulnerable by yourself. And what I’ve seen in an organization is it has to start from the top. If you, as a leader of an organization, are not vulnerable with your teams, you cannot expect them to be vulnerable with you. And if I may just mention a story, Jenn, from a book, I interviewed a, a managing director, a lady for a big bank in a big international bank. And she had worked her way up to the top in this male-dominated industry and elbowing herself, working extremely hard.
Nick Jonsson:
And basically, to quote herself, she said, I was a bitch. She pushed people away, but she pleased the bosses. She got the pay rises and what she was living on the paper. And what people saw was the dream. She would have a driver. She had the nanny, children in private school and everything else. She lived in a beautiful apartment, and everyone just adored the life she had, but inside she felt lonely and she felt isolated. Then when she had a, a, an accident, she had to have surgery on her face. She lost her confidence completely. And after that, she started to push people away further. So her team was pushed away further. Her husband at home was pushed away, and it went so far that she actually started to plan her own suicide. So when I interviewed her for the book, the first time she just opened up a little bit and she did, and she didn’t disclose everything.
Nick Jonsson:
But then a week later, she called me and we met for another coffee when she told me this. And I then managed to encourage her to to see a therapist. And she opened up to the therapist about this date, then discussed with her husband, sorted out these issues. And when the book came out and she was anonymous in the book, she, she bought a copy of the book and shared with her team members, asked them to read it. And then they had an open-door meeting and discussed it. And she said, by the way, that article there, the woman in the bank that’s me and they were all completely shocked. So that was basically the, the opening to this. And after this, they’ve had an open door policy. Her boss even came in and shared with her also that he went through challenges. So this is my point. Again, you have to be open, and you have to discuss things. Cause when you break down that stigma, and you have a warm open environment, then everyone can talk about everything.
Jenn DeWall:
Yes, yes, yes, yes. When you talk about it, then it gives people permission to also have those feelings to also be triggered or have a life that’s happening outside of work. It’s so interesting. Rarely if ever, have I ever observed a situation where someone was vulnerable and sharing a piece of themselves to be met with, you know, that judgment or, oh my gosh. That’s so, you know, I feel like more often than not, when someone does reveal that, then you do you empathize. I think that teaches you that at we’re humans, you can understand to be kind for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. And that we all have, you know, information about others, but we’re also missing a lot of information or that, that vantage point into what they’re going through. I love that story of the executive because yeah, we paint a lot of stories about how everyone else has it better, and that’s simply not true. It’s just that we may not talk about it, but when you can start that conversation and, and please do not, this is what I cannot handle, Nick – is when this is going to be something that we’re talking about, because we feel like we should do it. Don’t pretend to talk about mental health. Do not pretend to talk about it because of it, something that you might be hearing or learning more about, you have to actually have a point of view. And also, I don’t notice, I don’t know if you ever see this, but sometimes in a room, I might have someone say, I’ve never thought that stuff. And the second that you say that you’re also triggering to people that there’s something wrong with them. So be mindful maybe if you can’t relate to the same extent, understand that everyone’s journey is their own.
Overcoming Resistance to Talking About Loneliness
Jenn DeWall:
And that just because they’re going through something different doesn’t mean there’s something fundamentally wrong or that you’re winning it life because you’re not going through that. I don’t know. Those are probably two of my public service announcements is to make sure that you’re not just doing this because you want to be an attractive company to work for. You want to actually do it. And then two that don’t sit here and pretend, Ugh, I’ve never had that before. Because then you’re only going to further isolate yourself or those from, I guess, each other, other colleagues, I don’t know. Do you see that in the judgment land of people? Like, do you ever notice that? I feel like there’s always one person that’s like, I’ve never went through that before. And I think it’s a lie. I don’t believe them when they say that. I just think that they don’t want to know because they’re trying to keep that illusion of perfection. I’m curious. Do you see that?
Nick Jonsson:
Yes, Jenn, I, we also had this conversation in some sessions at work with the members in the senior executives and yeah, you’ll always get a, you know great topic, but it’s not so interesting for me, or it’s not relevant for me. So yeah, it’s very much that denial. And you know, and the way I see it, and then I come back to them. So, well, that’s great that you are, you are feeling so grounded and connected! But what about those around you? Don’t you have, you know, your team or about your family and friends. I think you should join this conversation anyway because there might be someone around you. You can help. And that’s the way to get people into this conversation as well. Because then how can you, they turn around and say, no, I don’t care about my team. I don’t care about my friends. I don’t care about my family. So no, thank you.
Jenn DeWall:
That’s a, a great, that’s a great idea how to approach it because I think you hit in terms of the language that they use. Like, oh, this is nice, but not for me. I just laugh. Cause I, I just think what the heck, we all have stuff, our brain is firing out all these thoughts. We’ve lived a life. We will have some of these things. Nick I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. And I know there’s so many things that I wish I could even go into as it relates to this topic. And maybe we bring you back and we talk more about how this relates back to diversity, equity and inclusion, but really creating that sense of belonging at work and why this is so important today. But I know that we don’t have time for that, but Nick, how could people get in touch with you? You, where can they book or how can they, how can they connect with you outside of this podcast? Because you need to talk to Nick. Nick is opening up the doors to very important conversations that need to be had and no longer should we lose people to suicide or other challenges as they relate back to mental health. We want to offer support to people. So how, how can they get in touch with you?
Where to Find Nick Jonsson
Nick Jonsson:
Well the easiest way is to look me up on LinkedIn. My name is Nick Jonsson, and it’s spelled N I C K J O N S S O N. So they can follow me on LinkedIn. I share a lot of my articles and stories around the topic there. And otherwise, if someone is interested in the book, they can be, go to Amazon or Audible. It’s on all these platforms. So apple books also, and just look up executive loneliness.
Jenn DeWall:
Yes. Thank you so much for writing this book, and thank you for joining us to have this very, very important conversation.
Nick Jonsson:
And thank you so much, Jenn, for inviting me and for covering it.
Jenn DeWall:
Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I truly hope that you enjoyed my conversation with Nick on this very important topic. If you want to know more. Well, the first thing is to think about something that’s on your mind. Something that’s keeping you awake at night write it down and think about who you can share this problem with. Maybe this is a potential opportunity to connect with Nick. You can find additional information about Nick by going to ExecutiveLonelinessBook.com. There you can purchase his book, and you can also connect with him on LinkedIn and you can find his LinkedIn connection in the show notes. Until next time.