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On this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, Jenn sits down with Chris Castillo to talk all about addressing recurring patterns that are sabotaging your success. Chris is the founder of Empowered Achievers, where she works as a career clarity coach, helping millennials build professional lives in small businesses that fulfill their true calling—originally coming from the corporate advertising industry, where she worked with clients like Google, YouTube, and Expedia. She traded in the agency life for the world of talent development and culture. She ultimately created her own company Empowered Achievers. When she realized her deepest calling was to help others find their calling, as well as to transition into a life of fulfillment, doing the work that they love. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Chris as we talk all about how we can address those recurring power patterns that are sabotaging your success.
Jenn DeWall:
Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. I’m so happy to be joined with Chris Castillo. Chris, thank you so much for coming on the podcast to talk to our audience all about how we can address those recurring patterns that are sabotaging our success. But before we go there, Chris, would you please just tell us a little bit about yourself?
Meet Chris Castillo, Career Clarity Coach
Chris Castillo:
Yeah, thanks so much for having me. My background is I’m Chris Castillo. I’m the founder of Empowered Achievers, as you mentioned. And I started my business because I’ve been in the same place that a majority of folks are when they come to me. So I’m a career clarity coach. I primarily work with people who are trying to figure out what it is that they want to do within their career. And in my experience, I am an ex ad agency. So I originally worked kind of like at my peak at an ad agency in San Francisco on the Google account. They were my main account and ran all of their mobile media advertising.
And it was very much one of the things that was like a perfect career on paper. I had studied marketing in college, so it seemed kind of like a natural fit. And a few years into working in advertising, I started to have the feeling of, I don’t know if this is actually what I want to do or if I’m just doing it because it seemed like the logical next step from undergrad. And I didn’t know what else to do. And so, finding out that you’ve fallen into your career is not a particularly good feeling. And when I went through it, it was very scary and very isolating. And you think you’re the only one. And so, I started Empowered Achievers in 2016 to help people through that trip. Same transition because when I went through it, it was a little messy, and it took some time for me to figure out what it was that I wanted to do. And my goal is to help make that process easier and smoother for every single one of my clients.
Jenn DeWall:
Yes. Well, your role is so important today. We obviously, I mean, all the data is there. We know people are leaving, organizations are looking for something, you know, maybe greater more diversity and the opportunities, opportunities for growth, whatever that might be. I’m just so glad that you’re a resource and an asset for someone to have. And, you know, I relate to that. I just, I think as you said, and so many people can relate to that, finding yourself in a career and being like, how did I get here? How did I? Am I happy? Am I just staying here? Cause I really, you know, it’s comfortable. And I think, and we’re talking about, you know, recurring patterns, I’m sure we’ll get into it, but so many people just stay because it’s comfortable. Oh, I’m curious. Are you seeing more people now too? Just cause they’re like, I need to leave. Or like, what are you seeing now as a result of the pandemics impact and kind of this “big quit”?
Chris Castillo:
Yeah. So totally to your point, staying, cuz you’re comfortable, not that compelling of a reason. But I think when it comes to the last two years, it’s been a super interesting time in the career coaching space because, yes, in my experience, we’ve seen a total shift. My hypothesis, whether it’s true or not—but my theory is that because of the pandemic, a lot of people had all of those additional things that were keeping them satisfied with their job moved away. And then they had to just concentrate on the work and ask whether they liked it. So they left the office, and maybe they were working from home, and they didn’t have the happy hours or the cool perks or the snacks or the coworkers who they really love. Or whatever else, a myriad of things we’re keeping them engaged and excited about their role. And so, at the end of the day, they were stuck just sitting at home, doing the work. And a lot of these people, I think, started scratching their head and saying, Ooh, is this, is this work even exciting to me? And so it’s definitely been an interesting time in this space to see, you know, the fallout of that. Let’s say.
Jenn DeWall:
I love that perspective. And it seems obvious when you say it, and I’m sure someone’s like, Jenn, you could have known better, but no, really you don’t, you kind of forget about those other things that do your work have meaning. Like I love my colleagues. I love being able to come in and say hi to everyone or hear what they’re doing. And it’s just harder to do in this virtual or hybrid world where people aren’t working the same hours, and you’re right, a lot of those things that added so much joy, you know, they, they just look different today.
Chris Castillo:
Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. And when they are stripped away, you’re left with just the work, and it’s, and it’s a lot harder to, to stifle the doubts you might be having.
What Are Recurring Patterns?
Jenn DeWall:
So this isn’t the podcast topic, but as a reminder, think about ways that you can engage your people because they may have lost out on some of those social connections that will be important to keep them that’s our, our PSA, to anyone that’s wanting to change to keep them. But of course, we know, and I know that this is true for you too. If you’re not happy, we know that you’re probably not producing the best for the organization or the team. And so it’s okay to leave. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> but that’s not where we’re talking. I love the topic that we’re gonna go with. We’re gonna talk about recurring patterns. Okay. So— recurring patterns that are sabotaging our success. Chris, let’s, let’s kick it off. What are recurring patterns?
Chris Castillo:
Yeah. So the way I always explain it is the things that just keep happening and happening and happening. And you can’t quite explain why. Right? So oftentimes, when that’s the case, sometimes we might be the common thread, unfortunately. As, as uncomfortable as that is, know it. But I think the way that I can kind of explain it is it’s that current gap between ideal versus reality. So I keep wanting, I keep saying that I want a to happen, but B keeps happening instead. What the heck is that about? Those are the kind of when we talk about recurring patterns. That’s what we mean. The things that keep happening, the things that keep leading you down the path that you say you don’t want, but for some reason, it’s the path you’re walking down anyways.
Common Recurring Patterns That Are Sabotaging Your Success
Jenn DeWall:
Oh my gosh. So let’s talk about what those are. So what are some examples of recurring patterns? I mean, I can probably see the one from me of just, you know, being indifferent or just going with the flow, but from your expertise, what do you see most with your clients?
Chris Castillo:
Yeah, so I particularly work with people who identify as I like high achievers. And so those high achievers tend to be the people who have always been, you know, if I want something to get done, I go to you, people on the team, and they’re used to hearing that. And so one that’s really common for them is I have to do all of the things, the feeling like I need to prove myself as an employee because any doubt that I might feel about that I need to cover that up by just working 10 X, as hard as everyone else. So they end up being into the office at those, maybe not so wanted hours. So like, that’s something that we often see as a recurring pattern that we need to address.
This perfectionism and choices of like, I have to make the right choice, that extreme pressure. We often see occurring patterns come up as, as the “should” people think about their career so that when people say the only way to be successful is X, Y, and Z. Like, those are all what I would explain or what I would kind of identify as recurring patterns with clients because these are the things that logically we know better than. And we think we kind of conceptually can say, I know this isn’t true, but we’re going through each day acting as if it is true. Does that clarify?
Jenn DeWall:
Yeah, absolutely. Okay. No, I mean, I think it rings true, like from that perfectionist standpoint, I think, you know, you probably have heard that expression, right? The recovering perfectionist is one of the recurring patterns that still shows up that I have to combat and just say, okay, it’s okay, done is better than perfect. You’re going to make mistakes. And so I love just shedding light on it. And also, from that leadership perspective, I know at Crestcom, you know, we teach leadership development. And so often in the classes, you just hear leaders feeling like I have to do it all. I have to do it all. And then it’s like, they keep piling on all of it. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and it’s like weights on them where they’re just sinking and sinking mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so I love that you help people highlight these, but you had said it earlier, sometimes people don’t know they don’t have that self-awareness. So how do you even begin to maybe identify these patterns? How do you help people, I guess, grow their own self-awareness? They might hear perfectionism when you say it, but how do you notice it?
Perfectionism— Ideals vs. Reality
Chris Castillo:
Yeah, yeah, totally. And it can be, it can be tricky. So I think that’s a very fair question. I mean, when I work with clients, we’ll often start by going through all kinds of exercises to look at how do I think about work and what are the challenge challenges that I face? One of the things we’ll talk about is those, we, as we mentioned, the gaps between ideal versus reality. So what are the things you keep saying you wanna do that aren’t happening, and what’s happening instead? And what’s between those things. So it, for example, if I keep saying, I want to leave my job at a reasonable hour and every single time I start a new job, I say, you know, know what this time’s gonna be different. I’m gonna leave at 5:00 PM on Tuesday, and it’s gonna be great. And then, two weeks in, all of a sudden, it’s 9:00 PM, and you don’t know how it happened. That would be an example of a gap between ideal versus reality what you keep saying versus what you’re actually doing. And so those are the things where we have to work on the patterns. And that to me is, I think like the, probably the easiest, most simple exercise you can do to say, Hey, where are my gaps? Where are the patterns that are maybe not serving me in the way I’d like them to? That’s typically a really good place to start.
Jenn DeWall:
My gosh, I love that because I think that’s an easy point. Like if you’re listening to this as a leader, what is your ideal? What do you want that to look like? Whether it is within your specific job functions or even what you would want your relationship with your team to be like, mm-hmm <affirmative>, what is that ideal? And what’s your reality? And what’s holding you back from getting there. And I, I think from that leadership space, you know, you had talked about those recurrent patterns of perfectionism feeling like you have to do all of the things or get them all right. Or have of the answers or feeling like no one else can do it but me. And, yet I want people to be competent, but yet I’m not giving them the opportunities to learn. And I’m just saying this for some of the people that still might be. Am I doing this well?
Chris Castillo:
Yes. A 100 percent! And it is, it’s like, it’s exactly like that. It’s like a cycle, right? Because it’s the thing that, you know, better then, right. Con again, at a conceptual level, you can say, like, I know that it’s probably not good for me to think that I’m the only person who can get X, Y, and Z done on my team and that I can’t rely on people. And yet you just keep doing it. That’s how we know it’s a pattern. And so yes, giving someone that exercise, because it is very, very hard to step out and identify with them within yourself. And I think a kind of bonus add-on for that is you can always ask people who know you really well. So like, if you have a partner, a good friend, a manager whom you’ve worked with for years or a mentor, someone who knows you super well, they can also sometimes help clue you in with, Hey, are we seeing a gap of, I keep saying, I want A, but B happens instead. Those people can also sometimes help clue you into those things. If you’re feeling particularly stuck and unsure about what they might be.
You Have to be Ready to Recognize Patterns and Own Them
Jenn DeWall:
Do you ever notice that people are aware of it? And I mean, you talked about this example with, I’m gonna start this new job, and I’m, you know, I’m, I’m gonna work reasonable hours. I’ll be out at five o’clock or whatever that might be every day. But do you ever just notice people being still resistant? Like they might first hear that it’s an issue but really resistant to owning it. Being like, that’s still not me. There’s still something else that’s happening out there.
Chris Castillo:
Oh yeah. A hundred percent. It’s, it’s always, it’s always much nicer too, instead of looking at what can I do about it? It always feels, feels a lot comfier to be like, who else is making this happen to me? So, yeah. That’s, that’s super normal. I think it’s important to know that, when it comes to this thing, our resistance to looking at it, you’re not ready to do it until you’re ready. And that sounds like a silly statement, but I think it’s a really important one to take in. When you think about it until you’re ready to actually deal with these patterns, you’re gonna just keep repeating them, repeating them, repeating them. And that’s okay. Like I’ve, I’ve, I’ve had folks at the end of this work say, oh my gosh, I can’t believe I waited, you know, 30 something years to figure this out. I’m like, well, aren’t you glad you figured it out now instead of, you know, waiting for 30 more, and there’s no right timeline. Like you’ll, you’ll be ready to confront it when you’re ready to confront it. But yeah, it can be scary, and people can be resistant. You are looking at it at first because it’s not particularly a comfortable or fun thing to do. <Laugh>.
Jenn DeWall:
No. Well, and I think, and maybe I’m thinking about an example because I’ve worked with people that maybe have that victim mentality. The world is against me. Everything is happening to me. And so, you know, they, again, don’t even have that ability to maybe they see a little bit of how they could be contributing to that, but yet they still want to blame. They wanna say it’s someone else’s fault, or they just want to assume that they have no power. So they’re playing that role of like that victim. And so that’s where that came from, probably because I can just think of that example. The person I wish could hear that.
Being At-Cause vs. At-Effect
Chris Castillo:
You are spot on. I actually had a team lead years ago who explained this concept of being at cause versus being at effect. And the way we were trained on this was you can either be a cause of acknowledging your cause within a situation or at effect, meaning in two situations. So just like that person you’re explaining, maybe you go into a performance review expecting a promotion, and you don’t get the promotion. The at-cause person would say or let’s use at-effect. First, the at-effect person might say, oh my gosh, I didn’t get the promotion. My manager said that I didn’t have enough management experience to start leading people. Isn’t that awful. And then the conversation ends there. The at cause people say, oh my gosh, I went in, I didn’t get this promotion because my manager said I don’t have enough experience managing people. And I guess I didn’t either take on enough projects or take on enough things to show them that even though I haven’t managed people directly, I have the experience that could be applicable to stepping into that role. Right? And so it’s such a slight difference, but a very important one. So to your point, when we’re in that victim mentality of like, well, I guess my hands are tied, it’s not a very empowering place to be. And so that’s, I think, an important distinction that just kind of helps to visualize it that way for me, at least.
Jenn DeWall:
Yeah. So, and I lo I just love that simple tool. So here it goes to everyone listening. Maybe this is your opportunity to ask yourself if there’s a situation where it’s not bringing you joy. Are you responding in an at cause or an at effect? I love that, Chris. So we talked. We’re obviously talking about self-awareness. How are we showing up? So do you begin to identify your own patterns? Is it really just thinking specifically with the ideal versus the reality, or do you have other tips and techniques that you would maybe reference to help someone get started?
Chris Castillo:
Yeah, I think that’s, I think that’s the easiest way for like a quick approach to this, so typically this is something that I spend weeks and weeks with clients on. We go through a bunch of things, talking about what they’ve seen in roles in the past. Often when I do this with clients, we’re talking about it in the context of what do I wanna do within my career. And so, a lot of the time we spend focused on the pressures of what I think my career should be and the expectations and all of those things. And they often lead us into some certain patterns of, I only look at jobs that, you know, align with whatever it is that I was told was a good career or anything else in that vein. And so, yeah, this is something that I’ll often spend weeks with clients on, but I think in terms of the short version, for people who are listening to this podcast, if they wanna start to say, Hey, what are the patterns in my career that are maybe not as useful to me as I think they are ideal versus reality gap is often a good spot to start.
How Do Recurring Patterns Start?
Jenn DeWall:
Yeah. I love that. You mentioned, like, as you were just sharing a lot of different things that people might experience or reservations that they might have, how do you think some of these recurring thought patterns started for people?
Chris Castillo:
Yeah. So, for the most part, a lot of these things stem back from things that we’ve heard and then accumulated proof of. Right. So, for example, if you grew up being told often, like be sure you’re making the right choice, is that a good decision? You know, whatever else, things you’ve likely deduced that there are right and wrong choices. And then you’ve probably developed a lot of black and white thinking, and extreme pressure of there is a right choice, and there is the wrong choice. So I better make the right choice, and pressure, pressure, pressure often leads to overanalyzing and inaction. And so it’s the things that we’ve heard that have then kind of like fodder’s been given to them over time.
Another example I would use, which is like a silly one, but I think is kind of help can illustrate how this happened, is the tooth fairy. So if you were a kid and you were told that the tooth fairy is going to come to collect your teeth when you lose them and leave something under your pillow. You are told that that that’s a true thing. You hear it from someone. And then everything you see is going to affirm that this is true. So I put my pillow under the, or I put my tooth under the pillow, and it’s gone the next day. There’s a quarter there or whatever. That affirms to me that this is right or my door was left open, and I put it, you know, closed when I went to bed or something like that. Right. So it’s kind of like things that we’ve heard over time that then get affirmed based on- what is it? Affirmation bias? That’s not the word-
Jenn DeWall:
Confirmation bias! Absolutely confirmation bias. There we go. <Laugh> I mean, I can absolutely see that. I think when I think about even how patterns started for me because this is hard and we talked about going back to childhood that the lessons start there, they absolutely do. You may, whatever that environment might look like. But I also noticed that even though I would save that, I had relatively high self-awareness. What I didn’t realize is that my first, I’m gonna call it, my five to eight years of post-undergraduate career. I don’t even think I realized that the feedback and how I was processing that feedback and applying it to myself was actually creating new patterns. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> or just a new you ways of like, you’re never making the mark, Jenn. You’re always “too this”, you’re just “too that”, like mm-hmm <affirmative> and then it kind of started this need to be perfect. You have to make sure that you’re always, you know, everyone in the room likes you mm-hmm <affirmative>, or if you are assertive, then you know that people won’t like you. So make sure that you, you know, sit back and smile and be not. And then it just starts. And I feel like it perpetuates like, oh, well then in a meeting, I can’t be my ideal self. Like, because in reality, I was told that that was not okay. And so that’s what I think about in terms of even my early years. Because I pick, I picked up so much, let’s call it career baggage as it relates to recurring patterns, those situations.
Chris Castillo:
Totally. No, I think, I think you are spot on it’s it’s not all in your childhood. It’s just the little seeds that get planted whenever they get planted. And then, over time, they grow and grow and grow. Cuz you keep saying, Hey yeah. Remember when someone told me that my personality was a little bit too much. Well, this experience also affirms that my personality is indeed too much, so I better listen to that advice. So yeah, it can happen at any point.
Jenn DeWall:
Which, and maybe, and I know this is a little off-topic, but it’s, I’m curious what you would say is let’s say I got a piece of feedback and how do you discern feedback may be to say, should I apply this to myself? Or should, would I say, Hey, that was great feedback, but I’m actually not going to take that on. I know that’s off, off-script enough where we were gonna go, but it, I think it’s also helpful in understanding that you can choose to stop that before it comes in and becomes a pattern.
Chris Castillo:
Yeah, definitely. I, I mean, I think it’s a, a great question. And I, I guess my kind of quick answer on that is I feel like a lot of that comes with self-awareness and confidence and time, and that’s something that can be built, and it can be developed. But I think part of that like I know at least in my experience, I think for many years I was very beholden to other people’s opinions and how are people gonna respond to this? And, oh my gosh, if I, you know, before I started my business, I had to confront my own head trash which showed up as a pattern of, I keep saying, I wanna start my business, but I never do. Well, that pattern was based on some head trash of, oh my gosh, this would be so what if I, what if I fail and everyone sees and wouldn’t that be the most devastating, embarrassing thing ever.
And so I think, you know, for many years I was very concerned about other people’s opinions, but part of that just came with time and experience and also pushing myself outside of that comfort zone enough to, you know, the first few times I would do things for my business. I kind of had to cover my eyes and hit post. And then, over time, it became so much easier. So I think that somewhat inadvertently answers your question of like, how do we, how do we know what stuff to take on and what stuff not to. I think part of that is time. Part of that’s experience and part of building your confidence and sense of self to know that you are not responsible to anyone but yourself, in a lot of ways.
Jenn DeWall:
Yes. I love that you are not responsible for anyone but yourself. You always get to choose what you take on, and you get to choose whether or not you want to entrust that individual’s feedback. They may not even be someone you like yet. You listen to them. Like that is always the piece that, and I know that I’ve done this. It could be someone that I don’t even respect, but then if they give me a piece of negative criticism, I’m like, what! <Laugh>
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What If I Don’t Address My Recurring Patterns?
Jenn DeWall:
So what happens when we don’t— going back to those patterns—what happens if we just sit, you know, kind of on our hands, if we just maintain complacency or just avoid addressing them in general?
Chris Castillo:
Yeah. So if we see recurring patterns or again, like this is rooted in, as I called it, like the head trash when we have things that are driving our decisions, if we don’t deal with them, they keep ch coming up. Right. So they keep showing up. They keep being in the driver’s seat of the car, so to speak. And it feels like your hands are tied, and you sit there frustrated, scratching your head saying, well, I don’t know why I can’t just start this business, or I don’t know why I can’t just do X, Y, and Z. And it’s because we haven’t dealt with the head trash, and so we’re staying in it, or we’re staying kind of committed to it. So if we don’t address it, it’s gonna just keep repeating itself until you’re ready to address it typically. Yeah. In my experience.
Jenn DeWall:
Oh my gosh. Absolutely. I feel like I see that too. It doesn’t  go away <laugh> you have to be able to address it and, and owning it and saying, yeah, there’s something that I’m doing that might be contributing to why I’m not there. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> I could be frustrated for not growing in XYZ, but if I’m not doing the work mm-hmm <affirmative>, how would I expect that? Or putting in a simple word when I was, you know, doing my Peloton morning thinking I’m like, oh my gosh, she’s so like, she’s so fit. I wanna do that. Jenn, do you commit to the same level of work that she does? I mean, you don’t have to judge yourself if you don’t, but understanding what that takes and addressing it and seeing like you have to also be invested.
Chris Castillo:
I was just gonna say stepping out a little bit- to your point. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it’s like, I think that’s the important part of it, for sure.
Jenn DeWall:
You talked about living in the gray and that under that, knowing that so many of us were, were raised to like do right or wrong thinking that black or white. I know for me, I can distinctly remember a boss always telling me early on in my career, Jenn, you really need to learn how to live in the gray. Yeah. And I think part of that is like I had this high value of integrity, and so things very much were painted in this black or white. And so then it made it more difficult to even mm-hmm <affirmative> see that things could be a different way. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> I don’t know. Like, do you ever struggle with that, or do you notice that your clients struggle with understanding how to live in the gray?
Chris Castillo:
Oh my gosh. Yes! So all of my clients – or no, many of my clients have struggled with that. And I definitely struggled with that. I think I always joke with clients that I’m like, look if it feels like I’m saying something that you’re like, how does she understand the inside of my brain and speak to my soul? It’s probably cuz I felt the same thing before. Right. Because I can, I easily identify like, Hey, are we struggling to set some boundaries with leaving the office? Because we feel like we need to prove ourselves? Because I did that same thing.
Right. So I think it’s important to know that, yeah, this is a universal experience for many people. But yeah, I’ve struggled with that. And I think for me, the thing that really helped with embracing the gray and the fact that I can always decide again, which is something I have to constantly tell myself. And I constantly chat with clients about is, is I think it’s really as someone who really likes to see the world with like certainty and yes there is right, and it is wrong and do the right thing and being taught to make the correct, the honorable choice and da da, da, da, to your point, it’s very like morally based. I think it was always hard for me to deal with uncertainty. And I think one of the things that were really helpful for me was when I acknowledged that the world is chaos, which sounds like a scary acknowledgment, but then I acknowledged on top of that, that I am my certainty.
Know What You Can Control— Yourself
Chris Castillo:
So what I mean by that is like, there are gonna be things that are gonna happen. I had a baby in February 2020, and I definitely can tell you, I did not expect a global pandemic to start one month into her being alive. <Laugh> there are a lot of things I foresee, that was not one of them. I’m sure many people agree whether they had a kid at that time or not. And so, you know, there are always gonna be the unexpected things, but how I deal with things, how I respond, how I handle things is my sense of certainty. And that actually really helped me. Because it allowed me to acknowledge, like, yes, there are things that I can’t control, but I can control myself. I can deal with myself. I can look at the things that I can impact because instead of trying to control the things that are way outside of my control, I instead just focus on trying to control the things that I can actually control. Am I getting enough sleep? Am I feeling like doing things that I can do? Yes. And that reframe has really helped me.
Jenn DeWall:
Yes. Focus on what you can control. So let’s talk about what you can control! How can you start to create new patterns to stop sabotaging your success?
Reframing How You Think About Your Recurring Patterns
Chris Castillo:
Yeah. So when it comes to reframing the way we think about things, I think what’s the most important step that people often wanna skip is looking at why they’re there in the first place. So often, what I see is people say, okay, yes, there is this recurring pattern of, you know, struggling to set boundaries at work. And what that’s about is, you know, I feel like I really need to prove myself as an employee. I had one client who, when we looked at, okay, why do you feel like you need to work all these hours?
She had this realization that she was like, both my parents, my, my dad came from Cuba. My mom came from China, and both my parents are immigrants. And so there’s this thought that, like, I feel that I need to make all of their effort to come here worth it. Right. So whatever it is, that’s the thing that’s driving you to stay in this pattern. I think it’s important to look at it. Why, where it comes from, what has told us that it’s true and how it serves us to keep it around. Because I think people so often try and jump quickly to like, oh, well I, I think that I need to prove myself. So now I’m just gonna say I don’t, that’s called repression, and it’s not really a great approach to deal with these things. <Laugh> so instead, we wanna focus on you know, why is it here? How has it served me to keep this around? And then, you know, leaving the things that are useful. What’s a healthier reframe? So yes, maybe you know, I like, I wanna show that I’m a good employee, but it’s not just the hours that make me a good employee, for example.
Jenn DeWall:
Yes. Yeah. I love like it’s I love that. And I think when you’re saying too, cuz I think this is often a piece that goes overlooked and it’s the piece of giving yourself grace. And I know you and I are both coaches, but giving yourself the grace to understand that you picked up these patterns at a point where it was likely helping you in some way. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> you weren’t wrong when you picked them up. You observed, you gave the example of the individual whose parents were from Cuba and China, and they observed that and so they picked it up and they knew that their parents might be happy. Maybe that’s what it was- that they could appease their parents by doing that. And so then you programmed it in, and I think this is an important piece. A lot of people, I think, can go down the path of judging themselves. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> gosh, why did I do that? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> how did I pick that up? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> no, these were natural things that you likely just picked up to help you be successful in the first place.
Chris Castillo:
Mmm-Hmm <affirmative> yep. That’s not serving you anymore where you, so no shade. Don’t be mad about it, right? Yes. Exactly. People are so quick to judge themselves for it. And like, I think it’s helpful to know to anyone who’s listening to this. I have never met a single person who has no weird head trash when it comes to their career. No one I’ve ever worked with has there’s a lot of people who think they don’t, and then they start this work, and they go, Ooh, maybe there is something there. But it’s very common. So definitely don’t feel that you are alone or isolated in it, because it’s so, so, so normal.
Jenn DeWall:
Oh my gosh. And I’m just gonna call this out too because if there is someone listening that, you know, I have no issues, I have no challenges. I guess my question would be, are you still growing? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> because when we say that, then it implies that we don’t need improvement. We have reached perfection, which you know, doesn’t exist. And I don’t know if you get that. I sometimes get that, you know, I could be delivering a keynote. I could be delivering a class, and sometimes you’ll have that person. That’s like, this doesn’t apply to me. It just applies to everyone else. No, really, it does. They just maybe don’t have that self-awareness yet. Or they haven’t been challenged with a coach to say, let’s challenge that a little bit. <Laugh> so do you have any response to that?
Chris Castillo:
People want to have grown, right? They want to reach the end destination a lot of the time. And to your point, I like to push clients to say, gosh, wouldn’t that be depressing? Wouldn’t it be sad if we got to the place where we’re like, okay, well, I guess I’m kinda done growing? So it’s just a slow slide to the end now. Right? Like, gosh, that sounds depressing. And so it’s a silly thing, but like I think that illustration actually does help me sometimes. To be like, it’s actually the growing and the process, and yeah, it can be uncomfortable to be going through the process, but there is not really an end goal. I mean, there’s an end that we’re moving towards, but we don’t really ever reach it typically because wouldn’t that be kind of sad.
Jenn DeWall:
There is no endpoint! If you’re not growing, you’re dying. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. So when you go through, you know, you’re, you’re learning how, or like you’re thinking about that recurring pattern, how you’re doing that processing, where you can say, you know, how it served, you doing that reflection of understanding without judgment, just curiosity mm-hmm <affirmative> what would be any insights you have for the reframe that can help someone think like, okay, what’s my reframe to this. Because I think when you’re stuck in that thinking, sometimes people are like, reframe what? No, I own this and live with this for the rest of my life because I thought it <laugh>.
Chris Castillo:
Yeah. So I think it’s, it’s hard to explain verbally, but like when I visualize it with clients will typically well write out, okay, where did this come from? How has it served me? How has it not served me? And then we look at all those things to build our reframe with that in mind. Because again, I think it’s important. What we don’t want is the overswinging of the pendulum. So we don’t wanna just say the opposite of the thing that we’ve always thought because that’s not gonna work. We’re not gonna buy it. But instead, we wanna push ourselves a little bit. So, for example, if you’ve always told yourself, the only way to be successful is in a nine to five, maybe you can, instead of saying, no, the only way to be successful in doing your own business. That’s not necessarily the counter we want. Instead, maybe it’s something like there are a lot of ways to be successful. And to me, success would feel like A, B and C. And so we want to like, look at why you’ve kept that around what it’s served you, what it’s protected you from to believe that thing. Whether it’s the only way to be successful is corporate or whatever else, baggage that you have. We wanna take some time to look at it. So then we can take that into account, into our reframe, to just push ourselves a little further. Because essentially, the thing with head trash is its stuff that can go through but is not 100% of the time true. And when we get into trouble is when we say without fail, this is always, you know, the answer. Does that answer your question? Yeah. I feel like it’s, it’s very a meaty kind of hard to talk through verbally.
Jenn DeWall:
I think it’s great. And it brings up. I feel like I’m gonna call them maybe “traditional” leadership rules. And one that I, that came to mind as you were talking is when I was early on my career, there was always this rule. Like if you’re, you know, if you’re working later than six, you’re committed <laugh> mm-hmm <affirmative> or, and I think that one took a long time to break because it created this culture of like everyone was competing to be the first in the last out. So you could show how great you were. And I think that it was so hard for me initially to go into an organization that maybe did practice work-life integration. And I was like, what, what do you mean? People are, people, are coming in at nine 30 don’t they know that you have to get in early to be successful? Wait, you’re leaving early for a soccer game? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> I mean, I just think about that because it is true. It’s taking power back, like just because someone gave you that pattern or that might have been a learned lesson from that culture, you know, the reframe is just the switch in definitions of it. It’s not, you know, who’s to say that because you’re working 90 hours that you’re putting in the best work or that you always have to work 10 hours a day to be a valued employee? I mean, on the flip side, you could maybe not be as efficient, right? Yeah. You could be talking or whatever.
Chris Castillo:
And then you’re over there, dredging everyone else saying like, oh, did you see that Sally didn’t arrive till 10. Right. And all you’re doing is, is yeah. Shooting yourself in the foot because, yes, there’s so much more to being a good employee than the hours you work. But I think if we can’t push ourselves beyond that, it can be very limiting and very challenging. And we have to be the first one to actually deal with our stuff before we can you anything about it? So I could never actually get up and leave to go to the workout class that I wanted to go to at 5:00 PM until I dealt with my own feelings of, oh my gosh, everyone’s gonna get up and point and say, “Loser! She’s not trying very hard!” whenever I was scared was gonna happen. Right. You know, you do it a few times, and the walls don’t crumble, and you say, okay, so maybe this is something that was a me-supported concern.
Jenn DeWall:
Yes. I love that. I mean, get curious. What would be your last? Maybe I know that we’re wrapping up this podcast. What would be any last pieces of advice or insights you would want to share? You would want people to know as it relates to, you know, addressing these reoccurring patterns?
Remember You Are Not Alone
Chris Castillo:
Yeah. I mean, I think I know I mentioned it before, but I do think it’s really important to acknowledge one- you are not the only person who is feeling these things or having these fears or having head trash. So many people have stuff. Stuff might look a little different, but everyone has stuff. And then also you, you, until you’re ready to learn them, that is the right timeline. So don’t feel like, oh my gosh, I need to do all of this now. Or don’t feel like, oh, I should have learned this before or whatever else is coming up for you. I think that can be like a really common sentiment of this. And I think maybe it’s because I tend to work with perfectionist high achievers that maybe I hear more of this, but there can be a lot of this pressure of like yeah— needing to, to get through all of this quickly. But once you’re ready to learn it, you can take the time to learn it, take the time to do it right. And then you can move forward. There’s no rush in the process, unfortunately. But yeah. That’s how you get to actual results.
Jenn DeWall:
You are exactly where you are supposed to be. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> Chris, how do people get in touch with you? I know we’re gonna talk about this in our closing outro, but just in case they wanna hear from your mouth, how do they get in touch with you?
Chris Castillo:
Yeah. So, Chris Castillo, I am the female Chris Castillo, which normally makes me easier to find cuz a lot of people don’t expect me to be who I am when they look for me. My business is Empowered Achievers, and you can find me at BeEmpoweredAchievers.com.
Jenn DeWall:
Thank you so much, Chris, for sharing your time, your expertise, all of the knowledge and stories. We are so grateful. Thank you for reminding me to again take that ownership around what patterns are holding me back that, you know, are keeping me from that ideal that I want to actually achieve. Thank you so much for being on the show today.
Chris Castillo:
Thank you so much for having me.
Jenn DeWall:
Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I really enjoyed my conversation with Chris, and I hope that you did too. And if you want to get to know more about her, there are multiple offerings, but to learn more about Chris, the coaching that she offers, or her self-study program, the Purpose Chaser School, go to BeEmpoweredAchievers.com, where you can schedule a free exploratory call. If you know someone that could benefit from this, please share it with them. And of course, if you’ve enjoyed it, don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service.
