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DEI and Leading Below the Surface LaTonya Wilkins, Founder of the Change Coaches
Intro:
Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with LaTonya Wilkins, who is the founder of The Change Coaches, LLC, and LaTonya works with C-Suite and executive leaders, teams where human connection and cultural change really happen- below the service. Latonya is a credentialed coach, author, and sought-after keynote speaker, who has inspired audiences all over the world. And today, LaTonya and I are going to talk all about how you can make DE&I a part of your everyday leadership.
Meet LaTonya Wilkins
Jenn DeWall:
Hi, everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. In this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I’m sitting down with LaTonya Wilkins, and I’m so excited for this conversation cuz we are going to be talking about how you as a leader can bring DE&I into your everyday leadership approach. Thinking about what you can do in your interactions, in your communications with people, just even how you respond in a meeting to make sure that you are practicing things that build an inclusive culture that make sure people feel seen, respected, heard, and valued. Latonya. I have been looking forward to this, and I’m so excited to talk about your newest book, but please, for our audience that does not know you, could you just tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came to be and also your newest book?
LaTonya Wilkins:
Yeah. Hi everyone. So I’m LaTonya, and I run a company called The Change Coaches. And basically, we help companies and teams create cultures of belonging. I am an executive coach first, and then I do workshops, and I also am a keynote speaker and master facilitator. Last year or sorry, a couple of months ago, last year. It does seem like last year, a couple
Jenn DeWall:
<Laugh> right. Everything in the last few years just blends together!
LaTonya Wilkins:
<Crosstalk> right! A couple of months ago, I wrote a book called Leading Below the Surface about how to build real psychologically safe relationships with people who are different from you. And I published that book as a culmination of the work that I do. And I culminated that with my experiences in the workplace being “othered” and also my experiences in the workplace of success. And that’s what I call below the surface leaders of the people that I’ve worked with around that. So that’s a little bit about me. One cool thing about the book is Amy Edmondson, who is the Harvard researcher who actually discovered the term psychological safety wrote my foreword. So that’s pretty cool.
Feeling “Othered” in the Workplace
Jenn DeWall:
Yeah, that is fantastic. And this is a topic that we know has really kind of taken the forefront, and you described it as feeling othered for those that might not be familiar with what that can look like. What does it mean? What’s the definition of feeling othered? What does that mean?
LaTonya Wilkins:
Yeah, yeah. So that’s been my entire life. So let me talk a little bit about it from like a more childhood perspective all the way up to today in the workplace. So in my book in chapter three, I write my chapter is, is called humans were born to exclude, and I talk about my first experience that I ever remember being othered. And what that looked like is, I was actually in an art class, and I was drawing a picture. I was the only black kid in my class. I grew up in Iowa. And so there’s no one else that looked like me. There’s no one else had that, that color of skin. So I was actually conflicted on what color to make the face of the person that I was drawing. And I decided on a color that I, I think I decided on yellow, and the hair was purple.
And when it came around to me, and I showed my drawing, someone told me that that’s not what that picture should look like and that I was dark and that picture should be dark. And that was the first time I felt othered. Everybody else shared their pictures, and they got applause, and mine was corrected. And that was, and that kind of went on and on. I talked about this in the book where, you know, on the playground, I would, I would get picked last for like Four Square or Dodgeball. And it kind of all started after that incident with that drawing and the workplace, the way that I’ve been othered. And some of you have probably been othered as well is when I, I don’t really fit into one category. Right? You know, I’m a black woman. I identify as a part of the LGBTQ plus community. And so whenever I was trying to go into, for example, join an ERG, for example, employee resource group, I had to pick one of them, and it was always hard. I was always the other that didn’t fit into any of those boxes. And so that’s what othered being othered feels like. Like you, you don’t fit into the boxes that are put out there for the masses, and you’re always in other. You’re always separate. You’re always the exception.
Jenn DeWall:
My gosh. Well, in one, I mean, I can only imagine how that felt to get that feedback when you were younger, just knowing that no one else had that same type of experience and how- I don’t know- just harsh that would feel or alienating just like I’m isolated over here on an island. And when we talk about it at work, and I know we’re gonna go into talking about what psychology, like psychological safety, looks like, you know, today versus before today, but why is it important to actually create an inclusive culture in the workplace? I mean, cuz some people I know in the lines of traditional leadership, they’d be like, oh, it’s just your feelings. You need to get over it. And you know, there are ways that I think people marginalize those experiences. And there’s obviously a shift now where we’re starting to see things differently. But like for those that really need to still hear this message, like why do we need to make sure that we’re creating a place to invite everyone to the table?
Why is DEI Important at Work?
LaTonya Wilkins:
Well, and I’m gonna answer that with a question. Why wouldn’t we want to? I mean, humans are basically they can make or break your workplace. Like if you can’t hire the humans you need, you have no product. If you can’t hire the humans you need, you can’t manage people. If you can’t hire the humans you need, you can’t really grow your company. I mean, we’re not in the age where AI is as yet going to be as productive as an actual human being. So why wouldn’t we care about inclusive leadership? Why wouldn’t we care? Why wouldn’t we wanna make DEI a part of our regular leadership, our day-to-day leadership? And I always ask that with a question, if you are someone that’s struggling with that and you’re thinking this stuff is really not important. Why not? Why wouldn’t it be important?
Because again, it’s, when you think about this stuff and the reason why I wrote this book is that sometimes we pigeonhole DEI into separate, but, and, and a lot of times, the way we talk about this stuff is it is, is separate, but it’s really a part of everyday leadership. I mean, do you manage people that are younger than you? Do you manage people that are a lot older than you? Did you, do you manage people that may have lost someone through the pandemic? Do you manage a worker that is a different class from you again, all of this has to do with inclusion? So I think again, I’d ask you why not, especially if you answered yes to any of those questions. Yeah.
Jenn DeWall:
Well, let’s talk about the difference between what psychological safety may be used to mean at work or what it was before people really started to have that as a forefront and something that we have to do. So what is the difference between psychological safety before or in traditional leadership versus where it’s at today?
LaTonya Wilkins:
Yeah, I don’t really think we talked about psychological safety as, as we do now before Amy’s work was, was really put out there. I think a lot of times, what we talked about before 2020, I would say, is trust, and we talked a lot about how to build trust in teams. Like that was the buzz buzzword. How do we build trust with our teams and it’s but trust in order to build trust, you, you have to have psychological safety? And that was kind of the missing piece. I think that a lot of people were looking for, they were looking, they knew what that was, but it had never been put into words. And what psychological safety means is that you know, you could speak up at work, and you could make a mistake at work. You could bring your whole self to work without any kind of punishment or repercussions or any harsh judgments, which when I found Amy’s work, and this is the reason why I asked her to be, to, to write my forward, I was like, wow, I haven’t had this in like 90% of my career.
I’d never had it articulated like that. Did I trust leaders? Yeah. But that’s the reason why I trust the leaders is because I had psychological safety. So yeah, I don’t think again, I think we, we just, weren’t talking about it. It wasn’t put into the words that that, you know, how Amy put ’em into for us to be able to understand this and easily digest
Jenn DeWall:
I love that it’s something that’s at the forefront because even, you know, again, we’re not talking about DE&I as something that’s maybe exclusive to one particular part of that conversation. We’re talking about being able to have that ability to bring your full self, to work your full self. I remember the thing, you know, when I talk, when I think, and I’ve shared this example on the podcast before, but when I received the feedback, Hey, Jenn, you need to be more vanilla and more of a yes, man. And you need to stop laughing outside of the office. Those are, are all things that upon receiving that feedback, I wasn’t initially going into the, oh, what’s the coachable way that I can, you know, rectify this. I was actually going to a place of like, wow, I don’t actually add value or I must be too different to actually produce any value for this organization.
Jenn DeWall:
And you think about that for anyone. When we’re excluded, when we’re also penalized for who we are. What does that do for our own engagement? I mean, if you’re telling me that I can’t laugh and I feel like one of my things is the ability to connect with people and just see them as that. And that’s sometimes through humor at work, but you’re telling me I can’t do that. How am I supposed to show up? And on the flip side of that, when I did kind of pull back after I got the feedback that they had a conversation with me that, that I wasn’t supposed to do that, and it’s so confusing. And I just eventually like just created the sense of, I don’t know if this is the right culture that I want to be a part of. And I know that I wasn’t the only one that had those same types of experiences and maybe that one wasn’t related to the fear of failure, but that was definitely related to who I am.
DEI and Psychological Safety
Jenn DeWall:
I’ve also worked in strong fear-based culture in that people kind of always felt like they were like – is someone, someone looking? Or just always feeling like you had to watch your back to make sure that like you weren’t gonna drop the ball or that someone wasn’t after you. I guess those are the ways that I’ve kind of seen psychological safety, maybe show up in a negative way in the workplace when we don’t have it. And what that does for the individual, or even just adding into mental health challenges or disconnection on teams. I said a lot there. I said a lot there. You’re probably like you are in circles, but I, I just love it because I, as someone that I don’t know, I wanna feel seen and maybe that could have something to do with my own childhood, of course. I wanna feel connected. I wanna feel like I matter. And that’s, I feel like everyone wants to feel like they matter. And so I don’t even get why this is kind of a conversation when I feel like it isn’t just being a human being.
LaTonya Wilkins:
Yeah. And I love what you said because I think if you are a manager or you lead a team, and you’re listening to this if we’re trying to fix someone. Like when Jenn described what she just described, all the stories, it was someone trying to fix her and them, they, they didn’t have the right tools, and they kept buying more tools, and they didn’t work. And finally, Jenn left, if you’re trying to fix them, you’re probably not creating a psychologically safe environment again, for people to bring themselves to work their approaches to work again without repercussion or without harsh judgment. It doesn’t sound like Jenn had that. Right? And if you’re trying to fix someone again, it’s like hiring a marketing manager, and they only can market a certain way. And if you’re getting them trying to mold them into exactly what you want, they’re probably not feeling very psychologically safe, especially if you are constantly criticizing their work. And that’s the opposite of it. So thank you for sharing that example because there is a, there are a lot of workplaces that still try to fix their employees. And again, they don’t realize that this takes them further and further away from promoting a psychologically safe environment.
Jenn DeWall:
Yes. Oh my gosh. I love this conversation. So let’s, we’re gonna baseline it. And we’re gonna talk about, like at a foundational level, what is diversity, equity and inclusion, and how does that relate to leadership?
What is Diversity?
LaTonya Wilkins:
Yeah, so DEI, honestly, I, when I wrote my book, I say several times in my book that it’s not a DEI book because I, I really think, believe that this is a part of leadership. And, and when I, before I wrote Leading Below the Surface, I read a ton of studies, and I did a lot of research, and the research supports it. If in order for this to work, it has to be a part of leadership. But what is DEI? Well, you know, diversity equity inclusion, right? Diversity is knowing your group, looking around, making sure that you have diversity within that group. Diversity does diverse, does not describe a person. That term is often used incorrectly, like “diverse hire.” There’s no such thing you could say, oh, I went diversity on my team. So let’s hire some different types of people. But when you say diverse hire, that actually causes friction in an organization. So I try to stay away from that. That’s not. That’s not really what that means. So that’s diversity.
What is Equity?
LaTonya Wilkins:
Equity is another one that’s often misunderstood, and that’s, whoever is at a workplace, let’s say, let’s take B. And Jenn, for example, let’s assume that we’re on the same team. So whatever Jenn needs in her career to be successful, she has access. And I have access to those same things, not the same things that Jenn needs, but the things that would make me successful, I have access to those. All right. Equity is not a quality, like making it equal for me and Jenn it’s, it’s making sure that if I, again, that I have access to the things that I need in order to succeed and what that might look like is – like the what example that I’ve been talking to, someone, a leader about coaching leader about is there someone on their team that, that has a health issue and giving that person access to address their health issue as like the same way they would give that to someone else. Right? No matter what that health issue is, and the reason why I think this is such a great example is that for example, if there’s if someone’s having a baby, that’s something that people celebrate in our culture, but if someone has a medical condition that has a stigma attached to it, that’s different. Right? And so, you still have to give them equity. Right? My, that Jenn’s equity when she’s having a baby has to be the same as my equity when I have a disease that might have a stigma attached to it. So that’s equity. Inclusion-
Jenn DeWall:
I love that example. And I’m sorry, cut you off. Cause I think that’s a great example that people can relate to like, oh, my colleague is pregnant. This is so great. Of course, they’ll get time off. Of course, we’ll get that. Right. And you don’t hear people saying like, oh my God, did you hear that Latonya is pregnant? She’s gonna take all this time off. But yet then if you’re like, Hey, by the way, did you hear that XYZ is sick with this? Then we’re like, oh, they do not care. They must not do this. Like, I’ve never heard that way of describing.
LaTonya Wilkins:
That is or overweight. And it’s so true. Yeah. Like overweight, like things again with a stigma. There’s we don’t think about, or even people, kids versus no kids, right? Like, like what if Jenn has, you know, she could leave event three o’clock every day to pick up her kids, but you know, person B maybe I don’t have any children, but I need to take off at three every day to, to, you know, expand my education. Right, right. Again, are you giving equity? Is there equity? And it’s not equal, and it’s equity. What I need to succeed in my career might be different from what Jenn might need.
What is Inclusion?
LaTonya Wilkins:
Inclusion is basically bringing in people that come from traditionally marginalized environments. I would say this also means in a way that shares power there’s a saying out there that says something like diversity is inviting someone to the dance, and inclusion is dancing with them. I hate that saying because it’s like, you’re not really sharing the sharing. The power would be, you’re actually asking them what kind of music that you want them to listen to. That’s real inclusion. Like not just dancing with them, but you know, asking them what type of dance they’d like to do or is, you know, asking the type of music that they’d like to dance to again, sharing the power, sharing the decision-making with them.
Jenn DeWall:
Oh my God. My, this is, and it’s so important to be able to understand that differentiation. And I like that you take the stance that Leading Below the Surface isn’t just this DE&I book. It’s a way of leading every single day. So let’s talk about where do people get it wrong? And I know we hit on a few examples, but where, so maybe it’s just in looking at this as like this initiative, it’s a strategy that we’re trying to do. That’s the first thing, but where do people get this wrong?
DEI is Not the Side Dish— It’s the Main Dish
LaTonya Wilkins:
I think what people get it wrong again is it’s a side dish, not the main dish. And it’s the main dish, right? It’s, it’s going to work every day and practicing what I call the three prongs of below the surface leadership— empathy is the first prong. Real leadership’s the second prong. And that means relatable, equitable, aware, and loyal. And the third prong is psychological safety. It’s bringing that into your day-to-day leadership. Before I went on my own, I led learning and development teams, Jenn, and you know this. And so it’s in one of the things we always focused on were leadership, like leadership development and competencies, what these leadership competencies were. And these competencies were always like strategy, collaboration, like all those types of things. Right. You know, and they never had below the surface, like, or anything.
Like, there’s never a lot of how we treat people. It was like what we were trying to manage to. And so it’s those again, it’s the how, it’s the, how we get where we’re trying to go. And that’s the advice I would give is to bring this into your daily leadership. You have to think about this again, as the main dish, it’s part of leadership. It’s, it’s part of everything that you do, you lead human beings, right? So you have to be on that level with human beings, like a computer, you have to learn to program a computer. So you also every day have to learn how to effectively build relationships with humans, especially those who are different from ourselves.
Jenn DeWall:
Do we complicate this stuff? Like, do we complicate it? Because sometimes I just, I really do think it comes down to, I love that you say it’s like, it’s the main piece. It’s not just a strategy. It’s a way it’s your how- how you show up as an individual. How in the heck do we get so far away from understanding how to treat people like that? And I know that’s actually a loaded question, and we could probably go a lot of different ways, but to me, in some ways, I just feel like it seems so, like, don’t be a jerk. Like understand that we’re gonna have different points of view, understand that we have different life experiences. And I’m gonna treat you as a human being and love you for being a human being. But yeah, yet, somehow we’re not able to deliver that because otherwise, this wouldn’t be a conversation. So I’m curious what your thoughts are. Like, why do we complicate this?
You Can’t Mandate DEI
LaTonya Wilkins:
Yeah. So there was an article that I cited in my book, and I also do a lot of leadership team coaching, especially with executive teams. I give them this article a lot, but it’s it was written. I think it’s an HBR article, but it was also appeared in Anthropology Today and in a journal, a couple of other journals, and it’s called why diversity initiatives fail. And like I said, HBR repurposed it in 2020. So you could go search that in HBR. You’ll find it. But it’s because we focus again on the wrong things. The number one thing that we focus on that’s overcomplicating it and making it worse is that we mandate the stuff. Nobody likes being told what to do. Okay. So when you start mandating things, then no one’s gonna wanna do it.
The number two thing we do is it’s an us versus them. So we did- all these companies did all these trainings around. Hey, these are the different types of racial groups we work with. These are the kinds of, you know, women’s groups you work with. This is what disparate impact is. People want a role in making change. They want a role in culture change. So when you’re doing these mandatory trainings, you’re telling them what not to do. You’re not telling them what to do, and you’re not letting them kind of decide what to do. So again, the second thing is control. Again, we, we put these things out there.
The third is training. So, and I hate this is gonna be controversial, but that’s also cited in the article. A lot of organizations just do training, and they stop there. Experiential learning is really what’s gonna help. Another thing that’s gonna help is exposure, exposure to different types of people in the world. So again, if you, in your organization, so again, if you’re siloing people and making them do training, and then you’re done after that, that’s not gonna work. But again, you have to have some way to practice this and reinforce it. And so, yeah, we’re overcomplicating it because these are, and that’s just a few facts of what the science says. We’re not following and practicing what the science says. Good. Where are we arbitrarily putting together these DEI functions? That’s what every company did in 2020, especially in 2020. They’re like, we gotta have a DEI, you know, a Chief Diversity Officer. I’m so excited. And then it’s a separate thing. And it’s disconnected again from leadership development. I’ve had that experience. I’ve seen it. So yes, we do overcomplicate it.
Jenn DeWall:
I like that, or I just appreciate that because I didn’t ever hear the perspective of, or I don’t know if I thought about it that way until you just shared it, that you’re mandating a way to treat others. And one of the pieces, I think that’s one of the undercurrents of a DE&I I, is also the ability to be curious with everyone. Yeah. How could I learn? What could you know, what experience do they have that I don’t have, and then you mandate it. And initially, it’s just placing judgment into a thing that maybe prevents us from even being curious in some capacities. Cause we’re like, well, I’m taking on this judgment. So I’m closing down the conversation instead of being like, Hey, what could be a different way that I could approach this? Like I never thought about that until saying, yeah, when you make it a forced thing, then you remove curiosity and then it becomes more of this us against them, like an argument that’s I don’t know why. I didn’t think about that, like as an obvious consequence of mandating this as a strategy, instead of just how you treat people.
LaTonya Wilkins:
Yeah. It’s interesting too, because in social psychology, I mean, there are different types of control, right? There’s formal control, which is like policies and, and compliance and of course structures and systems, but then there’s also social control, which can be good or bad, but social control would be like, you know, your organization is so committed to, you know, DEI or having a culture belonging that there will be social consequences instead of formal hand lapses. Right. And, and so again, that’s another thing that orgs get wrong is like, they get stuck in this kind of compliance space. And again, I’m not saying we don’t need HR policies around some of this stuff, but it’s like a lot of times we put way too much energy there at the expense of the organizational or the social type of control stuff.
Jenn DeWall:
Well, and are you having the conversation? I think of an example I’d heard. Gosh, this is probably a few months ago of a set of employees from a specific regional office that was not necessarily happy about all of these new like DE&I initiatives and whether or not I agree with their happiness. I wonder if part of the reason that it also went wrong is like, there wasn’t a curiosity conversation around like what this really can look like and why it’s important. Right? Like they don’t tell the why, they just say, well, we’re gonna make sure we’re aligning with this. Like, but they’re maybe not taking the time to slow down. Like, Hey, here are the things that you may not have visibility to. And this is why this matters. Yeah.
Leaders Should Get Curious about DEI on Their Teams
LaTonya Wilkins:
Yeah. And as a coach, I think that’s important because as a coach when I coach teams, and we talk about, you know, building cultures of belonging and doing these human-centered design sessions, I always make sure everybody has a place in this. And they decide what their place is. And again, we don’t let people do that when we’re doing this old-school type of approach. As Jenn said, there’s no room for curiosity. And there’s also no room for someone to decide, like how they’re gonna make an impact. Right? Ahead of finance or someone that works in finance may look way different than someone working in HR. Right. And so letting them kind of decide, like, how do I wanna do this in my organization? Like, what does my commitment look like? And how could I inspire my team? And it’s different for every organization. Like we’ve we were talking about this too. It might be different also for US-based versus Global based. That’s why it’s so important to let people kind of give people like the base and let them decide, you know, the seasonings and everything else from there because then they’re gonna is more committed to it. Because it’s their own goals, now. It’s not the company, again, pushing things on them.
Jenn DeWall:
Yeah. They can take their own unique experience perspective and figure out how they can add value. I love that.
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How Do We Create an Inclusive Culture?
Jenn DeWall:
So how do you, okay, here it is? We’re gonna just simplify it. How do you create an inclusive culture? <Laugh>
LaTonya Wilkins:
Oh my gosh.
Jenn DeWall:
And that’s where your book is. And I don’t wanna make it sound in any way that this is just like a one, two, like implement these strategies, especially as we talked about like how mandating isn’t necessarily the way to go, but what are some things that we can do not mandating? What are some things we can do to create a more inclusive culture?
LaTonya Wilkins:
Yeah. So earlier I, so if you are someone that is leading a team. Earlier, I talked about, you know, the three prongs of below-the-surface leadership, also in my book, I talk about different tracks of change. And so I’m assuming most of you that are listening are probably leading teams. And so, let’s take the leadership track. So you could create this on your team. You can, and I think there’s a couple of different ways to kind of get started again, the three prongs below the surface, the leadership, our real leadership empathy and empathetic listening, and then psychological safety. So first, study the real leadership principles I talk about in the book, again, relatable, equitable, aware, loyal, all the things, you know, DEI is kind of ingrained in there. That’s everyday leadership to show up and be a real leader with empathetic listening and empathy.
One of the things that I found is that we’re all capable of being empathetic. We just don’t know how to access that. Right. It’s really hard for a lot of leaders to access that, especially considering the roles that they’re in. Again, leaders are there to fix things. They’re there to make sure that things stay on the tracks. And so one of the things you can do to start with is I challenge all of you to go to your next staff meeting and just sit back and listen and observe your team, observe how they’re interacting, observe who’s fitting in. Who’s not observe if they’re someone dominating, observe if that’s how you want these meetings to go—access empathy. Access, trying to get in other people’s shoes as they’re going through their team meeting this, I, this is so important, cuz this is again, this is how you start accessing empathy. And this is what I call person to belonging listening. So again, if you could do that and you can kind of follow up from there, that is gonna go such a long way with people feeling included. Cause I feel like you listen to them and that you saw them. And especially if there’s someone again, that was getting talked over or whatever.
LaTonya Wilkins:
The third is psychological safety, and this one’s hard, really hard to do. And I will, I will admit that. But one of the things you can do is provide some like an article around psychological safety. There are tons out there. You could provide my chapter on psychological safety. I have a whole chapter on how to create that on a team, give it to your team, have them read it and then come together and say, okay, now that you’ve read a little bit about psychological safety, how can we create that on our team? What are, what, what do you think are, are some of the ways that, that you think we could do this? And again, those are three easy ways. These are three accessible ways to get started with creating a culture of belonging, especially on your team and from there, then you could scale to your organization. But one interesting fact is like when you ask employees about the culture, their culture that they have and whether or not they have a culture of belonging. Usually, they’re gonna answer that question with their team in mind, not their org in mind. So start with your team.
Jenn DeWall:
Yeah. I mean, absolutely. You could see different ways that that manifests in the culture that maybe makes it not seem like a culture. That’s very like a belonging culture versus on your team, and your leadership might be taking the right actions to be able to make the right environment. I’m curious about the empathetic listening component because I think that, you know, if we wanna deep dive into that in terms of how that derails teams or why you need to start doing it, I think of first the piece of what are all the things that you’re missing just by not slowing down or by having your face down into your phone, reading an email, instead of realizing that you could have someone that’s a top performer that maybe feels discouraged or just not included on their team, that’s actually ready to think, oh, maybe I’m gonna go somewhere else, but you’re not paying attention. You’re not paying attention. So I feel like a lot of this is just right in front of you if you actually take the time to do it. And I think we complicate it again with strategies. What should I be doing? Paying attention. So I just think that’s a huge piece that a lot of people just miss out on like they’re too busy thinking about how can I get budget to, you know, give people more money instead of thinking what’s actually going on in my team right now that could create a bad place or a place where people just don’t feel like they belong.
Listening Skills are Essential to DEI
LaTonya Wilkins:
Absolutely. And that’s like there are two different listening ways to listen that I talk about in, in the empathy chapter, once person-to-person listening. And that’s what you were described. The second is person-to-belonging listening, which I talked about earlier. Just looking around the person-to-person, it’s just, there are so many people of you have felt this way, where someone asked you how you’re doing, and you know, they zoned out when you answered it. Right. <laugh> and there’s too much of that going on. And so person-to-person listening is playing things back, you know, matching the energy of the other person. You know, trying to come from a place of curiosity and asking powerful questions. Like all those things are important, and we, frankly, do not do enough of it. As you said, Jenn.
Jenn DeWall:
What do you think like from your experience? Why do you think some people are reluctant to maybe come into this conversation? Like I, I would say what are the fears that may be a leader has for wanting to be more, I guess, curious with things, is it a fear of like a loss of control? Is it that they find things that they won’t be able to fix? Because clearly, there’s a reason that people are also afraid to address this in some way. And I’m curious, are there stigmas there stereotypes or just the, what are they afraid of? Why we’re not doing this,
LaTonya Wilkins:
The empathy part? Or all of it?
Jenn DeWall:
You know, I think the empathy piece, because it’s, you’re talking about person to person listening, and I sometimes think in leadership it goes against that or counters to traditional leadership, like this, we don’t care about them. Like emotions- they have no place in the work. Like they should just shut that off.
Start With The Basics—And Practice Them!
LaTonya Wilkins:
Yeah. You know this is really interesting because I do facilitation for some other companies quite a bit. Right. And one of them came to me and said, well, I don’t know if we wanna do empathy. That seems like a very basic skill. And a lot of the leaders came back and said, that’s too basic for them. I’m like, what? Like they don’t do it. So, so I think that’s what it is. I do think that it’s like when you’re talking about active listening, leaders are like, oh that’s, so that’s basic. And I’m like, wow. Again, and I think Jenn, I don’t blame the leaders. Again. I think it’s like we have these leadership competencies, and they’re like, these big pie in the sky things like strategy, you know, collaboration technology. And so again, the hows are like, oh, of course, I know how to do that. That’s common sense. But this is why we are where we are now. And yeah. That’s why we don’t do it again because there are too many orgs that, that aren’t considering these essential leadership skills again.
Jenn DeWall:
I just, I think that this is, I mean, it’s, I know that maybe I’m a little bit passionate and I want to, you know, just asking more questions because this truly is, we’re thinking about even making an impact your organization. Absolutely. Just seeing people, seeing them as individuals and practicing curiosity, or as you had said, even just taking the second to see things from another perspective. What about their request from you? Maybe it isn’t that bananas. If they’re asking for additional time off in the form of equity and support, what about blank, you know, or what are the things that you’re holding onto? Maybe it’s the example of like emotions shouldn’t exist at work, and people shouldn’t show that that maybe actually isn’t relevant in what we need from leaders today. I just, love this conversation because I think we’re truly finally moving forward and having open conversations that address the fact that we are all completely different and we are human beings with feelings, emotions, experiences, so on and so forth. And we want to be seen, I just, I don’t know why, again, we just shut the door on that conversation. But I think the work you’re doing is so important. LaTonya, what would be, you know, knowing that we’ve got to be close to wrapping up. I do wanna ask them where they can get the book, but what would be your final, I guess, tips or just something that you would want to share in closing with the audience to help them, I guess, feel the permission to actually start to find their own way to make a more inclusive culture.
LaTonya Wilkins:
Yeah. So a couple of things I’ll say is we could all do this. Like it’s, it’s gonna take a lot of practice for some of us. It’s gonna take some rewiring, but we can all do this. The second thing is if you’re listening to this and you’re like thinking, oh my gosh, I was that person that thought listening was too basic. That’s okay. We forgive you. And we understand that. A lot of structures and systems and orgs need to, to be changed again to bring some of these principles that I’m discussing to the forefront of leadership, curriculum, approaches, leadership development. We’re not there yet. So that’s okay. So just be forgiving to yourself today, if you are one of those people that was thinking, wow, this is so basic, like this has to do with DEI? I had no idea. Yes, it does. And so that’s okay.
The third thing I would say is I wouldn’t, don’t try to memorize anything again. Like I, I know a lot of times when I was doing talks, especially in 2020, when I was like, every time I did a talk, people were, were like, what could I read? I need to read a bunch of books. I need to do all this. That’s okay and all. But we gave you everything you need today. And you could just, just go instead of reading like 10 books and taking yourself even further away from your team, go out there and practice that empathy that we talked about. Go out there and talk about psychological safety on your team. Go out there and be more curious. Go out there and start practicing real leadership and embracing some of this stuff because this is really where it starts. So again, those are my tips and we could all do this and I I’m, I’m excited to see you do it too. Yes.
Where to Find LaTonya’s Book, Leading Below The Surface
Jenn DeWall:
Oh my gosh. Thank you so much, LaTonya! So, where can people get your book Leading Below the Surface? Where do they pick that up?
LaTonya Wilkins:
Yeah. So it’s on every site pretty much where you could buy a book. So if you go to LeadingBelowTheSurface.com, just LeadingBelowTheSurface.com, that’s where you could kind of pick where you wanna buy your book. Obviously, it’s on Amazon, and it’s on Bookshop, Target, Barns & Noble. So go to LeadingBelowTheSurface.com, and you can find a direct link.
Jenn DeWall:
LaTonya, thank you so much for just sharing your insights. Also, thank you for challenging the way that we look at this and how we can take it on to, you know, be a part of this where we’re feeling like it’s active everyday leadership. I just appreciate you breaking it down into like, a how, not a strategy. I love your perspective, and thank you so much for giving us a different way to look at it and approach it.
LaTonya Wilkins:
Absolutely. Thanks for having me today.
Jenn DeWall:
Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. It was great to sit down with LaTonya. I really enjoyed our conversation. If you want to connect more or learn more about LaTonya, you can connect with her on LinkedIn, or you can head on over to LaTonyaWilkins.com. There you can purchase her newest book, Leading Below the Surface: How to Build Real and Psychologically Safe Relationships With People Who Are Different From You. If you enjoy this week’s episode, please don’t forget to leave us a review. And of course, if you have any leadership development needs for yourself or your team, head on over to crestcom.com. We would love to help you develop your skill sets! Until next time.