How to be an Effective Leader In Your Life with Barbara Dalle Pezze

How to be an Effective Leader In Your Life with Barbara Dalle Pezze

Jenn DeWall:

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, we are talking about how to be an effective leader. And joining me in that conversation is Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze. Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze is an internationally recognized leadership coach, life, strategist, facilitator, and author distinguished by her capacity to inspire and empower and by her unique ability to connect and tune in with people from highly diverse cultures, ages and backgrounds. Join us as we talk about what you can do to be an effective leader.

Meet Barbara Dalle Pezze, Global Leadership Coach and Facilitator

Jenn DeWall:

Hi Barbara, it’s so great to have you on The Leadership Habit podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. I am really looking forward to our conversation today to kind of tap into your expertise on how we can be effective leaders. Thank you so much for joining us. Barbara, tell us about what your journey was like. What does your path look like to bring you to where you are today? How did you become interested in leadership development and helping people thrive in that space?

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

I think that has always been a passion of mine. And when I say these, I’m in that, since I was in my twenties, I always had a passion for people. And somehow, I love to see the potential in people and help them express it. And it was quite natural for me. And I had lots of my friends at the time that would, they would just come to me, and they would call me the wise one because it would come to me for advice. And then, later in life, I discovered that actually, there is a profession where you can connect with people and help them evolve and help them express their potential fully. And so I thought you know what, I think that that’s, that’s actually good. And I would like to try it. Having said that, it was not so straightforward, the path.

The path was going through working in academia went through doing facilitation and training, and corporations. And eventually, it was the focus on the coaching side and the leadership development and the leadership development because I realized that actually do have an impact. We do need to develop leadership, our own and others’ leadership. And when I say leadership, however, I don’t mean just leadership in corporations and in organizations, but also leadership in life. Because I have always wondered what happened if on earth we have the millions of people who are feeling leaders that are leaders and they walk their path and they are in their life feeling that they are impactful leaders, not necessarily because they are in corporations but in their life. I think that we would have a very different world actually. So that’s what I, that is what I was passionate about. And that’s what I have been pursuing a career in.

Jenn DeWall:

Well, and it’s so important. I love that leadership is not something that is just, you know, the expectation of maybe a corporate professional. It’s hopefully an expectation of all of us in a community and how we show up in our families or in our relationships. And I like that you bring that distinction up because a lot of people think that leadership is just when you walk into the door, that’s when leadership begins and then when you leave for the day, but we don’t have to think about those things. Whereas there’s such a great cross-over if people learned, for example, how to resolve conflict, whether it’s at work or at the relationship or with their relationships, they could cross over and use that, or how to influence or how to communicate effectively. Everything has that cross-over. Yeah.

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

And, and, and, and leaders of ourselves as well. Right? First of all, because in order to influence and impact whatever environment we are in, we need to be able to, I say, influence our self first and actually know ourselves and be the best we can be. So, first of all, he’s doing the work to become the best human being we can possibly be.

The Unexpected Gift – A Book by Barbara Dalle Pezze

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, it is because we have a short life to live, and we have to maximize our impact or our fulfillment in it proper. Before we jump into that facade, I want to talk a little bit about your book, The Unexpected Gift. What inspired you to write that?

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

Actually, I love this question. The unexpected gift is a memoir of my personal story, which is a leadership story because it is the story of how I found my identity and rebuilt my life after the implosion of my marriage that happened out of the blue. And it happened while I was living abroad and building my career being in between countries and therefore experiencing life in different cultures. So I decided to write the book because at the time everything happened, I was by myself, I was in a foreign country, and I was building my personal life and my career. And I couldn’t find any book or anybody that could tell me that what I was going through that was very painful and very harsh at the time would have had a happy ending.

It would have been good eventually. And what I was living, it was so shocking and so traumatic. And I had to figure out how to go through those moments. And because I love books, I’ve always looked in books for some suggestions and bits of help and mentorships, and I couldn’t find any. And so I decided that I wanted to, I would have eventually taken the time to write about it. And so, eventually, I did. And the way I did it, I also remember that when those very difficult moments were happening, I had such a lucidity. My mind was so clear, and there was such transparency in what was going on that there were insights that normally I would not have about life, about people, about how we feel, how we think. And so I decided in the midst of pain to write those insights somewhere I had always said a piece of paper with me, a tiny little booklet.

And so I would write all these insights because I knew that once the pain was gone, that clarity would have gone too. And so I did, and I did it for, for a long time. And eventually, when the time was right and when the life showed the ending of the story, then I could put everything together, and I decided to write a book. And now it is my contribution for people that go through traumatic experiences that want to be, and they want to know. And I want to tell them from the future that it is going to be all right, that it’s going to be fine no matter what they think or feel at the moment because that was my experience. And I share what I went through and how it is now from the future. And I think that that’s a great contribution, and it is also a way to help people going through a process of healing. And it also is for those people that are next to people who suffer a lot, because often we do not know how to deal with the pain of others. And so, yeah, I wanted to give this contribution because I’m sure it is not for everyone, but for those who go through very difficult and painful situations, I think it is a good hand at least this is what I was looking for. So that’s why I wrote it.

Jenn DeWall:

I love that you wrote a book just to give people hope and hopefully help them inspire their journey of clarity that even though they might feel at the bottom, or just wrapped up in pain and the trauma of an experience, that there is a way out that there is, you know, there will be clarity, time will pass, and they will come out better. On the other side, I think it’s so important. And I think it’s important to talk about it on this podcast, too, because, again, leadership is not just something that we do at work. Leadership is how we live our lives and how we essentially manage situations, overcome obstacles and adversity, and come out on the other side to truly maximize the experience that we have in our short time here. So thank you for writing that book, but Barbara, I guess my last question about it is if we took out one nugget from the book, what’s one important piece from the book that you are, or that you wanted to share with the readers?

The Importance of Role Models for Healing

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

Well, given that well, I love it all actually– given that these days, I am speaking a lot about role models and mentors. I would like to take that little piece from the book. There was a chapter where I spoke about unexpected mentors, and it is very beautiful, I think because although I’ve been blessed with the many people on many amazing friends and family that love me when I went through that experience, my friends and the people around me did not have the experience of the depth of pain I was going through. And so, even if they loved me a lot and they were there for me again, they could not support me, in the sense of how do I go about to move forward? And I found unexpected mentors in people that went through the atrocity of the second world war. Survivors of concentration camps, experiences, and they wrote about it, and they wrote their, this, their story in books.

And so I started reading their stories, and I wanted to find in an, and I was looking in their books to find, how did they go through that? And what did they leverage? What, how were they thinking, what were they doing? What what was it that made the difference so that they survived something so traumatic. And so they were my new community. I found that I belong to that community, not because what I went through is nearly close to what they went through, but exactly because of that, they went through so much more. They were able to somehow I felt like I belonged to them. They were able to understand me somehow. And in their words, I found so many lessons that I could learn and that I could put into practice myself. And they became the giants of the soul for my unexpected mentors and me because it was as if I was on their shoulders, and I could see forward what I said before. Then my book wants to do speak from the future. You’re going to make it. That is the message I got from them. Right. They, they were showing me that they made it in such a difficult situation. So who am I not to make it- given that they made it? So, so they were my unexpected mentors. And still today, I am looking to them for greatness, for becoming the best possible human being I can be.

Jenn DeWall:

I, gosh, I love that story. It’s all about, you know, sometimes within leadership, we have to look around us who has been in our shoes before, again, not saying that you were in the same circumstance at all, but if we just look at a high level that if we look around us in our surroundings, who may have experienced conflict before, who may have experienced pain, who may have experienced this circumstance that you’re in? Someone may have done that. And what can you learn to be able to help yourself heal, move forward, be more resilient? I think it’s so important to look around us because I think our natural tendency is to isolate and say, I’m all alone. And no one has ever gone through something that I’ve gone through. And again, while we can’t compare everyone’s experiences to our own, because they’re all unique. And we can’t, you know, not look at the concentration camps as a comparison. We can find ways that we are more alike than we are different and that we can find healing and be inspired by others and how they showed up. I think that’s a really important message.

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

And, and, and also allow me to add the link to leadership, right? They had amazing leadership in what they went through and how they responded, and how they acted in that situation. And I believe that they, they lived courage. They were resilient. They, they trusted in life. And at different degrees, if you look carefully, these are traits that we need in today’s world. In our situation today, being at, at work, courage is simple. For example, if you have to have a very difficult conversation with somebody, right, and you do need the courage to start that conversation, to bring up some topics we need, we need resilience because we want to go places. We want to achieve certain goals. And sometimes, it is hard. And so you need to stick to your goal and your intention and don’t get frustrated too much, at least, but keep going and being resilient about it. Right. And trust that eventually, what’s good and what’s honorable eventually will, you will make it and will be the one element that will be the winner, right? So I think that with a different degree of intensity and pain, but the traits and the qualities that we need in leadership, like courage, resilience, trust—are key.

What Do People Get Wrong About Effective Leadership?

Jenn DeWall:

So let’s dive into the conversation now, talking about how we can be effective leaders. So we talked about, you know, one of that first, and I know we’re going to dive more into it. What does it mean as an individual, but let’s talk about where do people get it wrong? Like where, what are examples of bad leaders, and where do they get it wrong? Why are they not effective?

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

What I would say, I don’t know if they get it wrong. Because I don’t think, I think that people tried their best for the situation they are in and for the abilities to understand and, and sense the situation if they can do it. I believe that a key element is always to be aware of others, to know that we are not alone and that we can not make it alone. So when you say, where did we get it wrong? I think that if you think about going solo, especially in this historical moment, I don’t think it works. I think that we need to collaborate. We need to cooperate with each other more and more. And especially if you are in a leadership position, you really want to have a team on board that contributes to the mission, the vision, and that are actually your team members. It doesn’t matter if you are in a leading position and they are your member of your team, right. We need to collaborate and cooperate. So doing things alone, I don’t think that works. And that would be my first answer to you.

Jenn DeWall:

That’s a really important answer. I remember something, and this could be more out there, but it was something that my aunt had shared with me when I was younger. And it was, I think when I was in my twenties, you know, still really going for that need for strong independence, right. I live my own life. I’m creating this, and I’m blazing my own trail. And one of the things that my aunt said to me is that you will never be independent. We are always interdependent. Meaning we will always need to rely on, depend on,  trust and work with— collaborate with others. And you’re right. I think the first, you know, when people, where do people get leadership wrong, it’s when they think that it’s and I forget again, who said this, but when they think it’s a Me and not a We. And it’s, you know, we get that wrong, and we just think that it’s all about us. And that’s when we miss out on the opportunity to leverage people’s strengths, to connect with others and to get the most out of a team. How else do people maybe, you know, I guess how else, or what else gets in the way of people being effective leaders?

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

I think when we, when we say, and we think I know better, and we, therefore, have an arrogance that does not allow us really to listen to others and to take into consideration their contribution. And, and I think that there, that we need a level of humility, which doesn’t mean that we do not have, we do not act with power or with strength. So humility is the fact that tells us that I am not perfect and I always am in need of help from others. Not because I am not enough, but because, as we just said with others is better, I would need their contribution. Whereas there are still too many people who are in charge that think that they know what is needed and that’s it. And what they bring to the table that might not be as important or as worthy of being taken into consideration? And so, again, I would say that arrogance is what becomes, it becomes a big barrier. It becomes a big barrier to being an effective leader.

Jenn DeWall:

Oh my gosh. I always say this when I teach classes on behalf of Crestcom for leadership development. When someone is onboarded into our class, the first thing I say is no ego. Drop your ego. Every person is here to be both your teacher and your student. We can all learn from each other, and we can all teach each other something, but your ego is going to be the biggest obstacle that you will ever have to overcome. Because I think ego also, you know, that creates that friction and the frustration, especially if something doesn’t go our way. You know, recognize the impact of eco and how much it can personalize things that don’t ever need to be personalized. And that we’re just all humans doing our best. I love that coming back from it. When you corrected it, it’s not that people are getting it wrong, right? It’s that everyone’s trying their best. I love that mentioned that you had said because it truly is. We have to trust that people assume positive intent. People are doing the best that they can with the information experience tools that they have. But Hey, we’re going to give you a different way to approach it today for those that may not realize how you could be showing up that could be maybe creating friction on your team. We’re going to talk about that.

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How Do We Start Becoming More Effective Leaders?

Jenn DeWall:

Barbara. So, where do you begin to become an effective leader? What’s the starting point for that?

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

I always start with doing the inner work of leadership on ourselves. And I always speak about a metaphor in relation to this first step, which I love, which is the metaphor of the watch. And if we consider it a beautiful watch, you can think about any watch you want. I like, but definitely. So I use that. And but definitely, but they have some models where you go, you see through the glass, and you see all the engines and all the tiny little parts that constitute the movement of the watch. And they are clear, and they are clean. They work in sync perfectly, and you can see the tiniest of them and they are all perfectly synchronized, and they are taken care of. So I think that the first step is really to do the inner work so that we can have our inner engine as clean and clear as well- functioning as shiny as the watch because once that’s done, that means that we have done the inner work to taking care of our understanding, how we work, how we function emotionally from a cognitive perspective, from a psychological perspective, even from a spiritual perspective, for those who have that dimension. And once we have taken care of all of those parts and aspects, and we know how they influence who we are and how we behave and how we relate and how we interact once that’s done and our inner movement works smoothly and is good, then we can focus on others. We can focus on the business; we can focus on other people. We can focus on actually making other people shine because we are working in and we are in harmony, and we are in a good balance within ourselves. So the first step is to me to be an effective leader is doing the inner work of leadership, which means do you actually know yourself going back for one moment to what you said before about the ego, right?

We cannot let go of the ego. If we do not know that we are in need, for example, of significance, or we want to be seen because by being seen and being considered great at what we do, we are gratified, and we feel at peace. So once we understand- this is just one example. But once we know that, then we can tame our ego a little bit, and we can leave space more to others, but we need to know that first, we need to recognize that, and we need to have had an insight about it. So I think that that’s, that is just one example of why it is important to just start doing the inner work and know yourself. Because from that dependence, the style of leadership, the way you interact, the relationship you build, and eventually the business that you create.

Doing the Inner Work to Become and Effective Leader

Jenn DeWall:

My gosh, I feel I say this a lot to people. I think everyone needs either a therapist or a coach, someone that can stand with you and help you do that inner work. And I am pretty open about the inner work that I’ve done, because why not? And I don’t live in my story, so I feel open talking about it, but inner work for me, oh my gosh, it helped me understand if we’re talking about how it came down to leadership. Inner work for me was even understanding that I used to be triggered by authority, and it’s a result of my childhood. But understand that when I was in a conversation with someone that was maybe an executive leader or had higher organizational positions or positions of power, then I would become weaker wouldn’t be confident. I wouldn’t be as assertive as I naturally was in circumstances that I trusted. But once I recognized that it was because of that, then I could say, oh my gosh, this makes so much more sense.

And I could show up in a different way, but so many people maybe miss out on that opportunity to reflect and think about what your triggers are. How do you show up in different situations? And then be curious as to why do you think you show up that way? And I just think that’s so important because for me, again, I saw so many parallels between what my childhood experience was into how I actually showed up as a leader, even coming down to the need for feedback, wanting people to tell me I was good enough, instead of telling myself I was good enough. I don’t know. You likely have a similar story, right? There are so many parallels between, you know, what we’ve experienced the implosion of your marriage, how that comes to be in terms of doing the inner work, what was my trigger? What was my identity? How do I rebuild? I know I just said a lot, sorry.

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

And I know that you are. You are absolutely right. And, and in my case, what I needed to figure out and discover quickly and not that it was a secret- that I needed to take charge again was to trust. Because by being betrayed and by having my marriage destroyed so suddenly and out of the blue. First, for me became, it became a challenge, and it was very difficult to trust. First of all, myself, what I was thinking, what I was feeling, am I actually get it right or not given that in my, my mind and in my experience, as it unfolded, I did it completely wrong apparently, but I had to rebuild a new way of understanding trust in myself and therefore also in others, because as you know, leadership and not necessarily in a leadership position, but also in life, we relate to others. We are connected to others, and we do need trust. Otherwise, it’s impossible. And so doing the work of really understanding trust, and recognizing my way of trust and how do I rebuild that capacity for myself and for others, that’s part of the leadership. And that’s part of my story. And that was one of the teachings and one of the great exponential growth, let’s say, that my story brought with me.

Having the Courage to be an Effective Leader

Jenn DeWall:

So let’s, I, you just brought up trust as a characteristic, and I know that you talk about it also with two other pieces that you addressed earlier. So we’re thinking about becoming the leader that we want to be. There are three things that we will need three characteristics or traits, courage, resilience, and trust. And I know we just hit on trust, and we’ll probably come back to that, but let’s start with courage. What does that look like to be an effective leader? What does that mean?

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

I think that courage is extremely important because courage is actually from the Latin word. It means the strength of the heart. Courage to me is having the first of all, the emotional ability to stand in uncertainty and to stand and be in fear. Experiencing fear, and nonetheless having the strength to move forward and to face no matter what is in front of you being at a very difficult decision, because it does bring consequences that are quite impactful. Being it is a decision to have that difficult conversation that could jeopardize a relationship that you care about. And so I think that developing the ability to be courageous. So having courage is an ability to stand in the truth in what you believe in what’s valuable for you and in standing up for what is valuable for you, no matter what the consequences. And I think that that’s a trait that leaders need because sometimes leaders do need to go against what is perceived as right because not everybody gets what it is about, for example. So you do need the courage to be alone. You do need the courage to feel like you are alone and, nonetheless, keep going. So it is really an emotional strength and mental strength that leaders do need to cultivate

Jenn DeWall:

My gosh. And it’s even, it sounds like, you know, there’s a big piece of authenticity, but then there’s a big piece of maybe leading and showing up kind of unapologetically. I don’t mean that you’re going around and lighting fires and making people mad, but also just saying that this is the right decision, and I can’t just follow the course, you know, just because that’s what we perceive as something everyone should be doing. I think that’s so important, but yet, oh my gosh. How the heck do you have the courage? Because I think we still have that root of wanting to be liked as leaders. I think that’s the biggest challenge leaders just so badly— and it makes total sense— want to be liked for being a leader, but yet, so it can be very hard to stand alone. What advice would you give them?

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

It is true that we want to be liked. What we don’t realize is that we do not need to be liked right now. So what I meant is that sometimes decisions that we make are not understood, and it appears like it hurts others. They hurt others. And in that very moment, we are not liked, but if we stay and remain steadfast in our decision because we are moved by what we believe is good and right, then the fact of being liked is not that important. Because the awareness that I am in any way contributing for the best becomes first, and my desire or need to be like, which is still part of the ego, can go second. And so it is part of learning to be a leader, the fact that even if I’m not liked right now, let’s leave time and see, right.

Because of the goodness of what I am proposing, the decision I made will show up eventually in some form in some sort. So people that right now didn’t understand my decision, and they don’t like me right now. They might come back and like me later or reconsider. Right. And if they don’t, that’s okay. I’ve made my journey. And I have been living in integrity with what I believed was the right decision, given the circumstances and the data I have at my disposal. So I think that we need, and that’s where also courage plays a part, right? We need to stand in the uncertainty of not being liked for a while. And it doesn’t need that. It won’t be, we won’t be like forever, but it is right now from that particular people kind of people we are not like, and let’s see, but I think that the good intention, and if decisions are moved by something that is actually good, it will come up eventually in a form or another. So we need to bear discomfort and the frustration, and maybe a little bit, the fear of not being liked in your example, or any other emotions that we do not feel comfortable with, we need to, we need to be strong enough to bear that discomfort as much as needed to move forward. Does that make sense?

Embrace Discomfort!

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, absolutely! Embrace the discomfort! You know, I think people always think there’s a quick fix and sometimes it’s just time and you’ve got to understand that it’s a moment of time, this too shall pass. It will not be like this forever. And, you know, give yourself that hope and understanding, which I think leads to your second characteristic of being an effective leader, which is resilience. So of like how, you know, resilience might be still pushing through, even when people may not agree with your decisions or like you, or, you know, whatever the event or circumstance might be.

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

And keep going and be determined and keep looking at what is your goal? What is that you want to achieve? What is it you want to communicate? And even if now you’re not able to do it, it doesn’t matter. You keep going with the good intention that moves you underneath. And so you keep going, and you have that trust that that’s why they go together. You have to trust. And for someone, it could also be faith that something good will come out of it. And so you keep moving forward, no matter what you perceive at the moment because sometimes we perceive it as it was for me. In my experience, I had to become resilient because what was happening in the outside world was totally not positive. It didn’t speak about the great opportunities coming in the future.

Actually, it felt very often like everything was gone, and everything was done, and it was finished, and there was no future anymore. And so I had somehow to yes, feel that, think that, and then doesn’t matter, I move forward as if there is actually a future as if there are great opportunities. Even if at the moment, I don’t feel that. And so, I think that resilience is part of it. It is this experience as well. I might feel discouraged. And I believe that no matter what, I move forward because it might be something positive ahead. And then, with that belief, I actually move.

Jenn DeWall:

And so the advice there, it sounds like if you want to build your own resilience, you also have to know what you’re working towards. And I know we could talk about Simon Sinek, start with why, but it’s really about crafting a vision for your future. That your circumstance today might not feel that great, might not inspire. You might not be where you want to be, but there can be better.

You Don’t Have to Know Where You Are Going to Start Walking

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

Yes. But I would like to challenge that a little bit because sometimes it is true that if we have a vision and we know where we are going, it is easier, but there are moments in our life when to even think about the future or dream about the future, or even trying to figure out the future is extremely painful. And so we can really not do it. And so I don’t want to say that if you do not have a vision, you cannot move forward because for me, when my marriage collapsed and the life, as I’ve had always thought about, disappeared, I didn’t know how to think about the future. And yet, I had to move forward because otherwise, I would have literally sunk into my pain. And so it wasn’t very difficult because you move, you need to move forward. And at the same time, you can not, and you do not know what to expect, what you dream, not even dream, but think about. Right?

And so before being in the position in a situation to craft a vision, I think that resilience is, you know, what, believe that there will be a vision at the certain point that will show up and you will be able to tap into and recognize. But even if right now, you don’t have it, it doesn’t matter because there is still life ahead. And what you want to do is just one step forward towards something that you might not know what it is. And I’m a speaking rod for people that need to work hard because they are in traumatic situations, in a difficult situation. And they are still working in cooperation and in their life. But it’s so painful. You can just take, make some steps and little steps. It doesn’t matter if you do not have a vision, then there will be a moment when, okay, now I’m ready to actually create my own vision again. But first, I have taken care of myself, and with resilience, I continued moving forward. I think that that’s important because otherwise too many people go, oh, wow. So it becomes a problem. If I don’t have a vision, it becomes, how do I do that? Through our moments, when you want to work on a vision, there are moments when you need to be patient and work a little bit on something else first.

Jenn DeWall:

No, I think that’s an important pushback, just that, like, you’re not naturally going to transition to, you know, especially from trauma, especially from trauma, that you are not going to move forward into being able to see the future very quickly, depending on the circumstance. So I think that’s an important observation, consideration and challenge because trauma plays a huge role. Mental health plays a huge role; depression, anxiety, bipolar, whatever that might be, impacts our ability to be resilient. And, you know, it impacts our ability to even see a path forward. And so I think that I love that you pushed back and challenged that and talked about just the small steps that we need to take.

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

Thank you. And that doesn’t mean that these people that have to take these baby steps won’t become absolutely great leaders and will have their vision and realize that they actually think the opposite because they had to slow down and really feel everything. And then they will be so ready to get to their vision when the time is right.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah. I don’t think I would even be where I was today if I didn’t go through pain. There’s just no way. And when I’m talking about pain, it can be mental health. As I’ve talked about openly on the podcast, I suffer from depression, but it could be just trauma that you have. And, you know, looking at that is not a mark of shame, not a mark of what makes you less than, but a mark of, you know, your current of the traits that you’re talking about, your courage, your resilience, your trust, and the strength that you truly have. I just, there’s a lot of value in when you can look back, and it’s not in the moment that you can look at it and say, wow, I really am happy about this situation or feeling like this. But it is the reflection past too, you know, look at yourself and appreciate yourself for how strong and courageous and resilient you are. So let’s wrap up with talking about the final component or characteristic, or maybe circle back, because we talked about courage, you know, the courage to maybe move forward, despite what other people might think or say, and then our need to be resilient despite whether or not we have a vision of the future. But then also trust. What role does trust play in our ability to be effective leaders?

Effective Leaders Have to Trust Others

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

Oh, well, that’s a huge one. I think that trust is really, I would say everything. If you think about this moment, you are trusting the chair you’re sitting on is not going to break.

Jenn DeWall:

I hope not!

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

Exactly! We are constantly in trust, even when we walk on a bridge, even if we don’t think about it is actually we trusted the technology that built a bridge will stay and will work. Right. So I believe that trust is really key, and it is made of many different components. How do we build trust? It has to do with our ability to set boundaries, for example. Now I’m talking about trust in relation to people, right? Set boundaries, and be sure that if I am communicating in relation or I am in a relationship with you, you know, where my boundaries are, and you’re not stepping on them or beyond those boundaries that are important for me because it, they constitute my safe space.

And I need to be able to recognize your boundaries, for example, and not step into your intimate area and life-space. It has to do with the ability to respect privacy. When you speak to me about something, or when I speak to you about something that is very important to me, I trust that you respect the privacy of what I’m saying. You are not going to talk about it on a podcast or with other people. It has to do with – to build trust, we need to suspend judgment, right? I need to suspend judgment. And when you say something, you need to feel free to express yourself knowing that I am actually listening without passing any judgment on what you say, but I’m actually open and listen to you and vice versa. And these allow us to express ourselves. These are just some of the elements that we need to be aware of them that constitute what we’ll build into trust.

And just by mentioning these few elements, we see that trust is an experience. It is not just as something that I give you or you earn. It is really an experience made of tiny little events and behaviors that I am experiencing when I am with you. And it is complex, and it requires time. And it definitely, I think it requires a focus, the ability to know that everything we do in a relationship, and therefore, if you are a leader, every time you interact with people in your team or with your peers, or the leaders in your organization you are building trust or I don’t say destroy because that’s too strong, but you are walking backward.

Jenn DeWall:

Yeah, eroding trust.

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

Yes, eroding. Thank you. So I think that it is so important because then on the trust we walk and now I’m getting, going back to the metaphor of the bridge. If I trust you, I can actually walk next to you, and I feel safe, and I can express myself and vice versa. If I am concerned and I feel that I don’t have trust in you, we are not moving forward because I’m testing all the time that I am safe. That I, what I am communicating is going to be taken care of. And so the focus remains on me instead of on you, instead of being on what we can create, this is just one way- there are many.

Is Trust Given or Earned?

Jenn DeWall:

How you just talked about trust inspired me. I just taught a webinar last week on trust. And one of the questions that we pulled the group for was should trust be earned? Like, should, do you earn it or do you just give it to or give it? Like, do you give it off the bat when you have a new employee, or you have a new boss, do you just say, okay, like, we’re going to be working together. Am I going to give you trust, or do you not trust them until they prove themselves to you? What’s your take on that? Cause it was actually a pretty big split in terms of how people see that.

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

I think that’s it’s both. So I start always for the kind of person I am. For example, I start always assuming that people are acting and behaving in good faith and with good intentions. And so my starting position is I am open to trusting you. Then I am also aware that I need to be conscious, right. That is because stress is a complex experience, and it is made of many different behaviors. And here I am thinking Brene Brown and her seven behaviors, the BRAVING. She called them the seven behaviors that constitute trust because trust is a complex experience. I am open to trusting you, and at the same time, by interacting with you and by entering the relationship with you, I am at work, and we are colleagues, right. I know where I stand in relation to trust.

If I know, for example, that for you is a little bit difficult to respect privacy, because maybe you never thought about it as an important element in the relationship. And therefore, it is easy for you to just talk about things that I confide in you with other people. Not because you’re bad, but just, you don’t think about it. Then there, it becomes a moment where we build one step further trust. I can come to you and have a difficult conversation non-judgmental, but I am expressing how I feel in relation to the way you handle privacy with respect to me. And that becomes an opportunity to build that element of trust. Right? So at that moment, you do earn a little bit. It is like if we have a jar and we put in a jar, all stones, then build trust, and then I will put in a jar of colorful stones because once we have that conversation and we have clarified that, I feel like that. Next time, at least you will think a little bit more right based on the conversation so that it will be a little bit of trust. So I am open to giving you trust. And then I am also aware, and I will pay attention with respect to my way of feeling that I can trust you, where do you stand? And how can I work with you to build more and more our ability to trust each other and our capacity for trust? So I think it is both given and earned at the same time.

How to Get In Touch with Barbara

Jenn DeWall:

That’s important and the levels of trust that you might give it to you. And then it’s the opportunity to fill the jar after that. Barbara, I am so grateful for our conversation today. How can our audience get in touch with you?

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

There is my website, which is my name, BarbaraDallePezze.com, and there is also, I am on LinkedIn, active on LinkedIn. So just by typing in my name, you can connect with me on LinkedIn, which I always love.

Jenn DeWall:

You can also get your book, The Unexpected Gift on your website. Barbara, thank you so much for sharing your time, your thoughts, your beliefs, everything with our listeners today. I’m very grateful to have met you and had this conversation.

Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze:

Thank you so much! It has been really great having this conversation with you. And thank you for having me here.

Jenn DeWall:

Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I really enjoyed my conversation with Barbara. If you knew a friend that could benefit from hearing this podcast topic of how to be an effective leader, share it with them, or share it with a coworker, share it with your team. Together we rise. And of course, if you are interested in developing your leaders head on over to Crestcom.com, where you can schedule a two-hour complimentary leadership skills workshop, where we come into your organization to help you develop your leaders. And of course, if you want to connect with Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze, you can head on over to her website, and there you can find additional information about her services as well as purchase her book, The Unexpected Gift. Until next time.