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Managing Conflict with Kevin Mowers, CEO of Extended Management, a Crestcom Franchise
In this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, Jenn sat down with Kevin Mowers, the CEO and President of Extended Management, a Crestcom franchise located in Northeast Ohio. In his business. Kevin focuses on leadership development, using a specific process that ensures that leaders grow into great leaders through a change of behavior. At the end of the day, Kevin’s personal mission is to move hearts in Northeast Ohio by making people into better individuals in their personal and professional lives. Kevin and I are going to be talking all about conflict today. And Kevin has lectured and presented on many topics, such as restorative justice, social justice, organizational development, and leadership development theory. He’s also a contributing author to the Little Book of Restorative Justice for Colleges and Universities written by one of the godfathers of restorative justice or “RJ.” Dr. David R Karp. Join our conversation as Kevin and I talk about where we get conflict wrong and how to resolve conflict in a productive way.
Meet Kevin Mowers, CEO and Crestcom Franchise Owner
Jenn DeWall:
Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I am sitting down with Kevin Mowers, President and CEO of Extended Management, a Crestcom franchisee, and you’re located in Ohio. Kevin, how are things going for you today? How are you doing?
Kevin Mowers:
Oh, it’s gorgeous here in the Northeast. Ohio. Sun is shining. Northeast, Ohio is actually known for being one of the cloudiest places in the country. So the fact that the sun is shining right now is a good thing.
Jenn DeWall:
Good day. Well, Great! Kevin, tell us a little bit about yourself. You are a Crestcom franchisee. We know that The Leadership Habit podcast is hosted by Crestcom, a global leadership development organization, but you are one of the people that’s bringing leadership development to organizations. And I just want you to tell us a little bit about yourself before we dive into our topic today, which is all about how to resolve conflict in a healthy way. But Kevin, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Kevin Mowers:
Yeah. Well, thank you honored to have this opportunity to talk with you. It’s just a passion of mine as far as talking about conflict, and so looking forward to our conversation today, a little bit about myself. So originally, I was born and raised in Michigan. So I’m a transplant here to Ohio. You know, so, so moved down here to Northeast Ohio about eight years ago. I spent my career working in higher education prior to doing what I’m doing now with Crestcom. You know, I always had that leadership aspect of it, but to do it now full time is a great thing. I love the outdoors, so my people that are in Denver, Colorado, I’m a little bit jealous of everything you have out there to offer. But I do spend my time outdoors here in Ohio. Love to get outside and do some fishing and play golf.
One of my passions, something that a lot of people don’t know, is I’m actually a competitive Archer. So I’ve been shooting a bow since I was a little kid, and probably the last 10, 15 years, I got into it competitively. So I practice probably once a day, at least an hour in the backyard, just shooting my bow, workarounds and skills. And then, I compete in monthly tournaments around the state of Ohio and internationally at times. So I’m married, two kids, two beautiful little girls. I’m a girl dad and absolutely love it. I wouldn’t change it, trade it for anything. But yeah, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s awesome. Things are going well here in Northeast Ohio. I love what I’m doing right now.
Jenn DeWall:
All right. Impromptu question. How would you relate archery to leadership?
Kevin Mowers:
That is a whole other podcast. So we could do that. There are so many overlaps, especially from the mental side of the game. But to do it well, to compete, it takes a process- which is leadership. So I could talk about that all day. We’ll say that for another conversation.
Why Did You Join the Crestcom Franchise Network?
Jenn DeWall:
Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough, Kevin. So, I know that your, you know, your background is within higher education, and I know that you’re passionate about leadership, right? That’s why we’re here today, but what made you invest in the Crestcom franchise?
Kevin Mowers:
Yeah, you know, a couple of reasons, one, I was at a point in my career where I said, you know what, I’m missing the things I love to do day in and day out, which is, you know, the development of people. So one of my final roles, when I was at Kent State University, was as the Director of Housing, so I oversaw the entire housing population, but it removed me from some of the day-to-day conversations around what does it mean to be an effective leader? What does it mean to be a better person, day in and day out? And I missed that, so I knew it was time to start looking at what I want to do to really make sure my purpose in life was being fulfilled day in and day out. So that was a big factor in it.
There are thousands of trainer training programs that are out there. I started looking for something that was going to be different. And I found Crestcom! When I started looking at Crestcom, I could tell that there was a difference between both the process and the people that were involved with it. And I think for me those are the two things and which I would say are the reasons as to why Crestcom is what I do. Because when we develop our program, we develop our process. It’s intentional. It’s purposeful. It’s built off of foundational things that you need to be a leader. So that was really important for me, you know, to know that I could have content that was sound, that was proven, that was vetted and developed in a way that’s going to actually move hearts; in a way that makes people become better.
But the other part of it too, Jenn was, you know, when I had the chance to go to Denver and to meet with the team at headquarters, you know, I saw something different there, you know, like they were nothing but supportive. You know, they did all that they could do to help me get to where I wanted to be when it comes to this business. And that continued after, you know, I bought in and started doing what I needed to do. So you know, there, there is this element of a family when it comes to what we do here at Crestcom. You know we’re all doing leadership work, but it takes something a little bit different, with a little more intent, something personal that that really separates us from our competitors and why we do what we do.
Jenn DeWall:
Oh my gosh, I love that you said, you know, you use the word heart, but we’re both passionate about leadership, but still, sometimes people don’t necessarily add heart or love into that equation. And I just think that’s so special that that’s one of your pieces is to want to lead with heart. And because I do, I love Crestcom as a global organization. That means that there are individuals all around the world that are developing leaders and, you know, all of us in our missions and purposes. I know that we’re going to create or help others achieve greater heights and greater outcomes that they couldn’t before. But I just love that heart is one of the things that brought you into this business, and I’m sure, oh, what were you going to say to that?
Kevin Mowers:
That’s spot on. In fact, I take my personal mission a little bit further. So my mission, my life purpose, beyond just what I do with Crestcom or doing with coaching individuals or, you know, the volunteer opportunities that I’m a part of here in Northeast Ohio. What I am trying to do day in and day out, my personal mission is to move hearts in Northeast Ohio. That’s why I made the career switch. That’s why I joined Crestcom. That’s why I do the things I do today. When I volunteer my time, that’s what I do in the archery world. You know, believe it or not. I move hearts. I want people to become better as individuals day in and day out. When we’re better at work, we’re better at home. When we’re better at home, we’re better for the relationships that we’re a part of. You know, that’s what it’s about- moving the heart.
What Interested You in Conflict Management?
Jenn DeWall:
Let’s talk about how we can move the hearts in the frame or frame of reference of conflict. So now we’re going to be talking, we’re moving into, you know, talking about how to resolve conflict in a healthy way because there are so many examples of when conflict is not handled appropriately. And of course, as a leader, as an employee, you know, conflict at work is a part of work, but it doesn’t have to be this, you know, atrocious, heavy, awful thing. It can actually be the thing that helps us move our teams forward helps us make better decisions. But Kevin, how did you become interested in understanding conflict? So you’re getting your doctorate right now too. Like, I mean, we haven’t really touched on your background of why conflict is an important area to you. So if you could even share or shed some insight on that as well.
Kevin Mowers:
Yeah. It’s a story. You know, I love storytelling, which you’ll hear me talk about a little bit later in our conversation, but you know, for me, well, I got to go back a long way, right? So I think all of us probably can think back to our earliest childhood memory. Okay. And if you think about that for a second, like it might not come readily available, but for me, my earliest childhood memory is actually not a good situation. It was a violent situation. So I grew up in a household with two parents, siblings, but there was a lot of violence that was associated with my upbringing. Without going into detail about what that memory is, it wasn’t good. It, it left some scars, it left some, some emotions that I didn’t know how to deal with as I grew up.
It bled into a lot of other things that happened. And one of the parts of my story that I often talk about is all the things that have happened to me. Now, I can actually trace lines all the way back to that moment, how I made decisions, how I respond to certain things, how now, as an adult, certain things play out, and I make decisions as a result of that. And then all comes around like how to deal with conflict, how, how emotions are tied to that. And what happened to me was, you know, as I grew up, I found myself in situations in which, you know, I, as a guy, as a male, I was actually rewarded for being, you know, violent at times, tough guy, tough guy, masculine. I played sports. So the harder I went in sports, the harder I hit, you know, the more aggressive I was, I got my name in the paper, you know, I got, you know, rewarded, you know, at the end of the year, you know, my dad would praise me, you know, the coaches would, you know, elevate my status, you know?
So, you know, I was getting all these messages that, you know, as a young man, like, this is what you need to do. This is what it takes to be a man. And for me, I always struggled with it cause it was like, okay, I have to do this, but it doesn’t feel right. I don’t know how to deal with this. I don’t want to deal with these situations where, you know, I, I find myself in these conflict situations, I was taught as a kid. You either fight or flight, and it was unacceptable to run away. So you toe the line, you throw up your fist, you grit your teeth and take care of business. Right. That doesn’t work when you go to college. You went to college, first-generation college student, you know, I didn’t know what that experience was going to be like at all.
I quickly realized that my way wasn’t going to work, and fortunately, I had an RA who sat me down and said, Hey, Kevin, you can’t do this. And you can’t do it because it has an impact on others. It’s, it’s having an impact in ways that maybe you didn’t see. That was the first time I ever said, wow, okay. It’s not about me. I can’t run around the dorm saying whatever it is I want. I can’t run around the dorm being a bully and getting away with things. Like, I gotta be mindful of what this means. Right? So fast forward a couple of years, you know, that, that was kind of a pivotal moment as well. I became a Hall Director, a professional.
Managing Conflict with Restorative Justice
Kevin Mowers:
I graduated from college, you know, got hired as a Hall Director, had the opportunity at the University of Michigan to learn about this thing called restorative justice. You know, when conflict happens, there’s a way to manage it. There’s a way to deal with it, focusing on harms more than anything else. When I heard that for the first time, I could truly say, Jenn, that there was a weight lifted off of my shoulders because my whole life, it was this, it was fight or flight. It was put your Dukes up, and let’s go. You know, and I wasn’t fighting people at work, but boy, I was taking that hard-line, aggressive approach when I realized, and I learned that there was a different way. I got extremely passionate about it. I wanted to pursue that and learn about it because I realized that conflict was always a part of my life. I was always finding myself in situations, which crisis and conflict was there. But boy, at the end of it, I wasn’t feeling right about what it was, how I was managing.
I was a part of that process. So I really wanted to find a way to do it differently. I wanted to stop the cycle of things that happened in my life. So it didn’t impact, you know, my wife and my girls and the people that I care about in my life. Like the people I work with and who I lead in certain places. So the quest, and the reason why conflict is a passion, you know, again, it started a long time ago, but it hasn’t ended in any way, shape or form. It’s a journey. It’s a process. Just like anything else we talk about when it comes to leadership, you know, I’m still learning, I’m still growing. You know, I’m still finding ways to talk about this and to share this and, and to learn about it so that, you know, I can benefit others because again, it’s about moving hearts. It’s about making people better. So that’s kind of the “why” – abbreviated version. I can actually give you a, probably a two-hour talk on just that story alone. But again, maybe we’ll say that for another podcast.
Jenn DeWall:
Well, I think, Kevin, you said a lot of very insightful things and also just great points of —hopefully— reflection for our listeners. We are so thinking and reminding ourselves that obviously, conflict is emotional. And conflict, whether it, you know, obviously it doesn’t, even if it doesn’t go physical, the burden of conflict of feeling in conflict with someone, or even getting energetically into conflict and riled up around conflict is emotional. It can add more stress. It can damage our relationships. It can impact our ability to think clearly or make decisions or, you know, even sleep. I love, you know, just reminding people like this is why we want to find a healthier way to resolve conflict, which is what we’re going to be talking about because it is emotional. So when we don’t address it or just pretend it doesn’t exist, it’s actually just playing, you know, it’s still making an impact.
You just may not be able to see it. But the other thing that I liked that you shared too, Kevin, is that I think something that a lot of people don’t really talk about, like in the sense of how did you learn how to resolve conflict? And for many people, that likely is their upbringing. Whatever they observed in their home became this tool of how we understood, or maybe a process or a way of how we thought that we should approach conflict. And so hopefully to our listeners right now, they’re thinking, and I’m talking to that person like maybe it’s that person that was you in the dorm, right? When you knew that you were not handling conflict, maybe that was me in my twenties. Like I always had this proven thing. I always needed to prove myself to people. And I felt like I even damaged relationships cause I was more concerned about being right than I was about necessarily doing the right thing or detaching from the outcome that didn’t really matter.
And so I feel like there are a lot of people here that if you found that you maybe didn’t respond to conflict in the best way, maybe there’s this example that you’re thinking of, that this is still your opportunity and what Kevin and I are going to be talking about today to find healthier ways. So long story short, just don’t beat yourself up for it, but also take responsibility and, you know, find a different way so it can improve your relationships. And, of course, your own mental health and ability to be successful. So Kevin, what is conflict? What is it?
What is Conflict?
Kevin Mowers:
Oh, great question. I think if we had figured this out by now, I think the world would probably be in a totally different place. That question has always been my starting point in this conversation for a couple of different reasons, but I think every one of us knows what it feels like. I think everyone can kind of put their finger on a situation in which, you know, the conflict has happened. I challenge it to some degree, and what I mean by that is when we think about conflict, and if we define it in its basic forms, conflict is, yes, a difference. So a different opinion, but what makes the situation truly a conflict situation is when it becomes a prolonged, ongoing difference, but something that also has a serious and significant impact. Okay. So think about that for a second. If my wife and I have an argument over where we want to go to eat, is that a conflict situation?
Jenn DeWall:
I mean, if it’s not prolonged, so by that definition- it’s not necessarily prolonged.
Kevin Mowers:
Right? Right. So, you know, it’s an argument. Like she wants to go to Applebee’s. I want to go to, you know, Subway as an example. Food choices aside, but that’s not a conflict situation. We had a disagreement on what we wanted for dinner that night. Now, what would happen in that same situation? Right? What would happen if, if every time we wanted to go out to dinner, I chose, and she had no voice in saying where she wanted to go. Would that then be a conflict situation?
Jenn DeWall:
If she’s frustrated by it, absolutely. Because every time you’re picking the place to eat!
Kevin Mowers:
Right, so it’s this prolonged notion, but it also will have a significant impact on her at some point too. Right. Maybe from a health standpoint, maybe from a mental standpoint. That prolonged process is a part of how I pushed back and defined what conflict looks like. Because in reality, we find ourselves in conflict situations all the time. You know, like they say that there’s no conflict in our life is a bald-faced lie. And I would challenge anyone who says they don’t have conflict in her life. Now the difference between arguments, fights and conflict, there are some subtle differences in it. You know, an argument is, is a simple disagree, you know, you and you and I, for example, right? Like you think podcasts are the best way to reach people. Maybe I think social media is the best way we could argue that. Okay. Is there a significant impact at the end of that conversation for either you or me? No, we have a different opinion, but is there a prolonged argument over it now?
You know, it’s, it’s a one-time thing. We’re not in a conflict situation. Okay. What would change that is if you and I were working together on a regular basis and we were in the same office space trying to do this work and my belief that social media, it was the best route and your belief that podcasts are the best route for best outcomes. And, and you insisted that this has to happen in my life then becomes impacted because I don’t buy into it, then maybe we’re in a conflict situation. Okay. There’s the difference. So when you ask me, what is conflict? You know, my response is it’s a different certainly, but what makes it different? What makes it really switch into this world where it’s a conflict situation is when we have prolonged, you know, arguments, prolonged, differences that start having a significant impact on us as individuals.
And when I say us as individuals, not just me, but it’s also you, it also could be the people that are around us. So if we’re an office building, it could be our coworkers, if we’re at home, you know, so if my wife and I are constantly arguing over the same issue over and over again. My two girls are going to be impacted by that. That’s going to impact their friends. That’s going to impact my in-laws because every time we go over to their house, you know, we’re arguing and fighting, right? Like that there’s that for me, there’s that shift from, all right, we had a disagreement, to this is now a conflict situation because of those two factors.
Jenn DeWall:
I think it’s important that you referenced that. And maybe this is as you were talking about that definition of conflict and it being prolonged the thing that kept popping into my head, or maybe people that might initially be conflict avoiders and how really, think of it in the situation where if you’re a conflict avoider and you are observing a situation, and it is perceived to be a single or individual instance, it’s not really conflict. It’s just a difference of opinions or a difference of approach. And I liked that because it softens, it, it becomes a greater conflict, you know, obviously as you’re talking about when it’s prolonged and then it escalates, and it has a greater impact on both of us, but maybe this is just an opportunity to help reframe this a one-time event? We can resolve this. It’s not going to be a full-fledge to like, you know, conflict, have a choice on how you show up and how you manage the situation.
Managing Conflict by Personality Type
Kevin Mowers:
Yeah. And I think that’s a spot-on point. It is a moment for us to reframe what this looks like. You know, because immediately what comes out for that question is what does conflict look like, why does it exist? How does it exist, right? Like where does it come from? And in my argument, there is that, you know, this is a natural response for us as part of our personalities. Okay. So this month across Crestcom, we’re talking about how to manage personality traits. Right? Right. Great topic, you know, there are thousands of personality trait assessment tools that are out there. You can take any one of those things and figure out personality traits. And I will guarantee you that if you split them down, the middle half is going to be in conflict. Avoidance and half are the ones that usually cause conflict.
Okay. So if you take ten people and put them in a room, five of them don’t want to deal with conflict in any way, shape or form. And five of them are like, yeah, I’m good with that fact, I’m going to probably poke a little bit to make conflict happen. They might not say that, but that’s their natural tendency. That’s their personality traits. So for me, kind of going back to that story I shared before, I thought I was good with conflict. I thought I could manage it. But when you break my personality traits down to who I really am day in and day out. I am in conflict avoidance all day long. I’m a peacekeeper. I want to do all I can to avoid conflict situations, which is why I didn’t handle it well. And also that natural response, you know, and it’s part of who we are.
That’s why these things exist. You know, conflict is always going to be here, you know, because we’re, we’re talking about people, you know. And anytime we’re talking about people, we’re talking about emotions, we’re talking about things that are bringing things out from deep inside of who we inherently are. So if emotions are tied to this, then we know people are tied to this. And if people are tied to this, there is a reason why conflict happens. And I’ve always said that because a lot of people will sit back and go. I don’t know why I’m in conflict. I don’t know why I’m always in these situations. I don’t know why X, Y, and Z happened. I push back and say, actually, there’s probably a reason. Let’s, let’s step back a second and say, all right, the people are involved. Why and how? And then why are they involved? Because of the emotional response? Is it fear? Is it anger? Is it frustration? Confusion? You know? So, so for me, why it exists, where does it come from? It, it comes from an inherent part of who we are deep down inside, you know? So for me, knowing that it’s then tied to a reason that we can then figure it out. We can figure out how to respond in a way that makes it healthy but also productive in resolving that conflict.
Jenn DeWall:
So if we’re to, if there’s someone listening right now, that’s thinking I might be that person that always finds myself in conflict. The first thing you would say, why does, why does that happen. It’s because it’s the natural response. It’s part of your maybe personality style, your learned behaviors. Why else do you think conflict? Yeah.
Kevin Mowers:
You know, you mentioned it before, and I’ll kind of bring it out who we are today based on our experiences in life. Our experiences in life drive our beliefs. It drives our values. So that’s a big part of this conversation, right? Like we, we, we make ourselves who we are based on those experiences. And as a result of that, that’s where someone’s emotions will come out. And the beauty of it is we get to change. We can always stop and pivot in different directions, which is a beautiful thing to dismiss that inherent drive an inherent part of who we are and not recognize it as a part of that conflict situation actually will cause more harm down the road. So one of the things that I’m studying right now and really spending time focusing on is this intersect between how our personal identities and conflict exist.
So usually, when conflict situations happen, we don’t talk about how we as individuals are deeply impacted. More importantly, when we figure out what the solution is, we don’t account for how to repair that damage caused by those identities, which is causing leaders to then make ineffective choices on how to move forward. What happens then is you always, and you hear this in our media, you hear it, you hear it all over the place. You know, somebody will do something as a result of a situation, but then they’re retracting a statement, or they’re issuing an apology, or they’re doing something to kind of back that up because it caused more issues, you know, for the group or the organization. Right. So how we make decisions, how we move forward, how we repair the harm. And I’ll talk a little bit more about that here in a bit that all stems from this inherent drive, who we are as individuals, based on our personality types. That’s why it exists. That’s why it comes out the way it does.
Understanding Your Own Reactions to Conflict
Jenn DeWall:
I mean, it’s the simplified way of understanding that. It’s just who we are. And I guess the example that I think of, you know, as it comes down to who I am in terms of values. One of the things that I had observed was even how I treated people that were late for meetings because one of my values was respect, and within that definition of respect. It was, you know, you respected me my time if you showed up on time. And I have just found as I’ve gotten older that while that might be true at some point in time, how I learned that message. I actually do not think that even works anymore for values, because especially in this virtual world where many people are going back to back in meetings like they are going to have to maybe grab some food, check on the kids, do whatever they need to do, or remembering that people aren’t intentionally trying to make things hard for you, but it honestly took me to be me going to a show with a friend who was late, and she always has late, and it still to this day.
It does not matter. Like now, I just laugh, and I’m like, we’ll just see what she gets here. It’s fine. But it took her going, like going to the show and us being late for the show, for me to say, Hey, I’m going to let you know stuff that this is actually one of my boundaries, but I just decided that instead of being frustrated with her because I love her so dearly that I, I was just going to change the way that I approached it. Instead of looking at respect, as you know, in that definition, I actually had to adjust my definition of respect. Because it truly, in that situation, Steff wasn’t trying to disrespect me. Steff just doesn’t manage her time well. Like it’s not about me. It takes time to realize that.
Kevin Mowers:
Yeah, that’s a great story. I’m going to come back to that story and use that as an example a little bit later because it ties into how we then can respond. I think what you did and how you responded to this beautiful there’s purpose and intent. And it ties directly back to the conversation we’re having today.
A Message from Crestcom:
Crestcom is a global organization dedicated to developing effective leaders companies all over the world have seen their managers transformed into leaders through our award-winning and accredited leadership development programs. Our signature BPM program provides interactive management training with a results-oriented curriculum and prime networking opportunities. If you’re interested in learning more about our flagship program and developing your managers into leaders, please visit our website to find a leadership trainer near you.
Or maybe you yourself have always wanted to train and develop others. Crestcom is a global franchise with ownership opportunities available throughout the world. If you have ever thought about being your own boss, owning your own business and leveraging your leadership experience to impact businesses and leaders in your community, Crestcom may be the right fit for you. We’re looking for professional executives who are looking for a change and want to make a difference in people’s lives. Learn more about our franchise opportunity on the Own a Franchise page of our website at Crestcom.com.
When Does a Disagreement Become Conflict?
Jenn DeWall:
So let’s go into like, so when does it become a conflict? So it’s when it’s prolonged, and there’s a significant impact. When does it, when else does it become? So we know why conflicts happen. It’s differences of opinion. It’s people, it’s your values, your beliefs, but when does it actually become a conflict?
Kevin Mowers:
Yeah, exactly. You know, the piece I would add to this conversation around when and how and why- you know, outside of this inherent drive- there is a power play at hand that we’re talking about. You know, normally when we’re in these conflict situations, it’s one versus another, that there are elements of a power struggle that are in place, you know, and it could be boss/employee. It could be, you know, relationship-driven, husband/wife, partners, whatever the case may be. But there is this push and shove notion around how to establish power, and establishing power also comes from a natural place. We do that so that we protect ourselves. We do that to preserve the things that we care about.
And I always, you know, at this point, I always say, we, we can look around us right now in our world and our culture, and have examples of good leaders and bad leaders. And they all have power. Okay. There are some bad leaders with a lot of power making some really bad decisions, and it impacts a lot of people. Okay. But there are also some really good leaders that have significant power that can make a really big difference in their organizations or in the things that they’re leading. So this power thing is not a bad thing. I say it as a part of the conversation because it’s part of reality. When we’re in these conflict situations- especially with other individuals or with driving values or beliefs– there’s that push to want to establish power from a preservation standpoint to protect the things that we care about. That can cause harm. I always challenge people, especially from a social justice lens of how do you use your power? How do you use your privilege to make a difference? How do you maybe create equality? How do you create these situations in which conflict situations are managed in a way that is actually healthy? What’s the difference? Okay. So when you asked me, you know, where does it come from? You know, I always come back to here- the heart, right? How do we drive ourselves? But recognize that there are inherent flaws in that process. And we make choices to your earlier point on how we manage them and make choices moving forward.
Jenn DeWall:
And I think you mentioned, or you alluded to this, that like, when we’re looking at conflict and, you know, talking about it as kind of competing or shift in power, power, isn’t necessarily a position of a leadership position. I have this authority over you. Power might also just be feeling like you are seen and heard and having your voice actually make an impact, or just having, having someone listen to you. That is a form of power. So power isn’t always a title. And that’s what I hear you say, right? It’s not just about, you know, who has this authority. It is about maybe getting your voice, your idea heard, or just feeling seen as an individual.
Kevin Mowers:
Yeah. Empowerment, right? Like yeah, exactly. You set a spot on. I don’t even want to add to it because it was perfect.
Managing Conflict in Real-World Situations
Jenn DeWall:
So, what type of conflicts have you seen at work?
Kevin Mowers:
Any and all, but probably not nearly enough to be honest with you. So but I, I think one of the experiences I had working in higher education. Working on a college campus, you see a lot of stuff, right? And I always, you put, you put 18-year-olds in a ten by ten dorm room. It really comes out. And one of the ones that always pops in my head is– I call it the burrito story. So one of the roles I served in a previous life was when something happened on campus, especially if it was a violent situation. My role was to come to campus and actually make a decision at the moment to remove the student from campus. Okay. So I get a call at two o’clock in the morning, one night, you know, I’m a fast asleep phone rings. I’m like, oh, here we go.
So I answered the phone. You know, the response on the other end was from one of our police officers. And the officer says, Kevin, we need you to come in. We need you to the decision to remove this kid from campus. And I’m like, okay, what happened? He assaulted his roommate. Okay. I’m on my way. Didn’t get all the details. I just had to get to the campus. Right. So get the campus, you know, they had this young man in custody in one of our offices. I walk in, and I say, okay, what, what happened? This, this young man, was intoxicated. He wasn’t putting together two words, and I’m like, all right, this is not good. Ask the officer what happened. So the officer proceeds to tell me that, you know, this young man came home from a party, walked into his dorm room.
His roommate was fast asleep, sleeping in bed. He flips on the light, walks over the refrigerator, pulls out a burrito, sticks burrito in the microwave, you know, starts to nuke it. His roommates start saying, Hey, you know, I’m trying to sleep, shut the lights off. Do you know how come on? It’s two o’clock in the morning. Like you shut the lights off this kid. Doesn’t say anything. He’s intoxicated. Microwave goes off, you know, beeps. He pulls off the Brito, takes one. Look at his roommate. Throws a burrito at his roommate. It hits his roommate in the face, gives his roommate a third-degree burn. Look, the guy sends his roommate to the hospital, so there’s the assault side of it. So, you know, the police officers were like, Hey, he assaulted his roommate. He needs to be kicked off campus immediately. He needs to be removed from this University.
Okay. Yeah. I- it’s hard for me to argue that. Okay. Like that is a bad situation. Is it a conflict situation? Ah! Okay! This is where it gets a little challenging. Right? So I’m dealing with a situation in which, you know, you’ve got a young man who’s highly intoxicated. He’s not even putting together sentences. I have officers that want him removed. What did I have to do at that moment to be a leader? Okay. How did I have to make my decisions? It was a challenging situation. Ultimately, when I decided to remove him for the evening. He had alternative housing off-campus. The next morning, we scheduled a meeting. We talked about the w we bring them in, asked him what happens. He doesn’t even remember it. We explained the situation, realized that they had ongoing conflict leading up to that event, that they were having roommate issues. They’re constantly fighting.
Removing this kid from housing was appropriate. Removing him from campus was a different story because I would be jeopardizing his four-year degree at that point. Right. That was going to be determined at a later date. I share that as an example for a couple of different reasons, right? Because you can look at that and say, that’s a terrible situation. Of course, he needs to get kicked off campus, but the kid was not a bad kid. He made a very bad choice. One that had a significant impact, right? One that had caused significant harm. Should he lose his opportunity to a four-year degree? That was a totally different conversation, different, you know, set of parameters that we had to look at another time and date, right. I was brought in to make a decision about immediate harm and impact to the campus community. All right. I wasn’t going to make a determination that was going to impact this kid’s life for the rest of his life. I was a part of that at a later point.
But I share that story for a couple of reasons. Like when you asked me what kind of conflicts have I seen? That’s probably the extreme side of it. You know, I’ve seen personality arguments. I’ve seen, you know, significant mental health issues that, that have an impact on our community. I’ve seen, you know, situations in which personal life struggles come into play at work, you know, the impact, how people make decisions. Right. I love that question. And I appreciate it because while I can continue to go on and get countless examples, almost every one of them is going to come back to an emotional response that people have. So come back to something that’s impacted who they are, you know, their values, their beliefs, something is leading up to it. And that’s why I make the argument and go back to what I said earlier. There’s going to be a reason behind something that’s going on. Now, if we make a rash decision and make decisions off of limited information, are we going to cause more impact? Are we going to deal with these complex situations in unhealthy ways? Chances are, we probably will. I rather make a decision with, with as much as I can so that I make healthy decisions, make healthy choices, make decisions that I know are going to deal with conflict in a healthy way.
When Managing Conflict, Make Sure You Have ALL of the Data
Jenn DeWall:
Oh my gosh, this is why we as individuals always need to be, I guess, very attuned to how we’re feeling. Because as you talked about the fact that it’s prolonged. So that incident, you know, with the roommates, might’ve been pretty clear. Like you could see the conflict brewing after you had the conversation, but when for those that are still struggling to maybe get their brain around all these perceived isolated incidents. Where like that’s still a conflict? Well, the reason that it’s prolonged is that maybe you have been telling yourself, my company is not treating me well, my boss isn’t treating me well, or like this is happening and you’re not seeing anything, right. Conflict avoiders this is when we’re pushing down, not saying anything, not saying anything. And then, you know, all the stars align and then it becomes a conflict. But really had we been more attuned to who we are or do more, self-reflection processed our emotions, all of the things that sometimes we have a tendency to just think like, oh, that stuff is fine. I’ve got stuff to do. I don’t have time to sit and evaluate how I’m feeling about something. If we actually lay that groundwork, we can be better.
And I just love that point of conflict because it is really putting the accountability on the individual to say, you have to take responsibility for what’s irking you, bugging, you, stressing you. And if it’s something that you can control, it is then your responsibility to have a conversation to take that action. And because that’s what makes it prolonged is it’s yours. It’s the response around conflict, or maybe what we’ve been tolerating because we don’t feel like we have a voice. I think that’s so powerful because I, it really just, it helps people for me, it helped me understand that prolonged part. At first, I just kept thinking of it being a prolonged conflict, the same situation between two, you know, two parties, but really it’s, it can also just be at the individual level of perceived, you know, misgivings, misfortunes, frustration, so on and so forth. And that if you don’t take responsibility, it just could be that next situation that causes you to respond in a way that you know you didn’t want to do or show up that way.
Kevin Mowers:
Exactly. Let me, let me show you another way people often get this wrong. Okay. So let me ask you a question, Jenn, what is two plus two?
Jenn DeWall:
Four!
Kevin Mowers:
Are you sure? The thing is—No, seriously. Think about second. Are you sure? Like really? Two plus two is four? You think so?
Jenn DeWall:
Yes! Two plus two is four.
Kevin Mowers:
Okay. All right. I don’t know if I agree with that. Are you sure? One more time? Are you sure?
Jenn DeWall:
I mean, yes, should I think it’s not anymore?
Kevin Mowers:
Yeah. All right. So thank you. So, all right. Let’s process this for a quick second, right? Okay. Two plus two. All right. What was the question? What’s two plus two, right? Well, “too” plus “to.” Those are two different words. I’m not even talking about numbers, Jenn, and you know, you went to the numbers right away. Right. So what happened in the next question? It seems silly, right? But this is a great example for a couple of reasons. One, you and I, I was asking them about something totally different. I didn’t frame it the right way. We talk about how that plays out, but you went to numbers. I went to words. Okay. That’s one issue when I questioned you. What happened? You’re like, what? What?? You know, like you had this emotional response, right? You at one point, you were like, “I think so?” Like also you have this uncertainty, you might even have a little fear.
Like, “What? Like I got this wrong?” But I sense a little frustration. I guess at some point, and you’d probably be angry and be like, “no, I’m right.” At some point, you’re looking at me, and you’re gonna make an inference about me going, “Kevin, you’re a dummy.” Like, what are you talking about? Like, I am done with this conversation. I call those inferences. Like we are constantly pulling data, making these inferences, assuming that there are things that are happening in a way because of what we know. Right? And of course, two plus two is four. We know that. Right. But, but you could see in that quick example how that conflict situation could have played out if that emotional side of it really drove the response.
That’s what happens in these situations, and what we are finding, especially now in 2021, is that people are landing in these polarizing and extreme places. Right. You know, they’re talking about something simple, like two plus two, but if I’m saying it has nothing to do with numbers, and you’re saying it’s all about numbers. Well, guess what, Jenn, you and I, we can’t be friends anymore. I can’t associate with you anymore. Your opinion does not align with my opinion. I don’t value the same thing that you value. We’re done. Why are we going to have this conversation again?
You know, like that, that right there is harmful. That has a significant impact. Like that’s where people get it wrong right out of the gate, you know, is that those inferences take place. We jumped up what I call the ladder of inference. And I’ll talk a little bit about what that looks like here in a second, but we jump up these ladders of inference, and we get to a place where it’s like, you know what, polarizing extreme. I don’t even want anything to do with it anymore. Also, when there’s this conflict, is it a conflict? Okay, let’s back this up a little bit.
Effective Discourse and Managing Conflict
Jenn DeWall:
I’m glad that you bring that piece up. And I mean, because in the U.S. And of course, every country, every country has a unique, you know, challenges whatever’s going on. But as I’m talking about even the US for the last year and a half, two years, it has been like that in terms of how people have resolved the conflict. It has been extremely divisive. There have been a lot of assumptions, regardless of what side you’re on. Like, if you believe in this, you’re a complete X. If you believe in that, you’re a complete X, and it really has created a divide. And I am so tired of allowing politics to be a reason that I don’t connect with people. Because for so long, I’ve had many friends that we have different points of view. We do not agree on the same things. And for so many years, we can have those conversations and still be friends. It’d be fine. Who cares?
And then it felt like within the last few years, all of a sudden, you were meant to really take a stand and like no more– no more trying to work with them. It’s just all judgment on their values, what you perceive for them to believe. And you miss out on all of the wonderful characteristics of how diverse we truly are because you just take one judgment and assume that that is who they are, the person that these are the values that they stand for. I am so sick of that device. And truly, for leaders, it is your job to figure out how you can unite those opinions. Like I’m sick of it. Or there are so many people that I love that we may not have the same views on a lot of different things, but it does not take out the value that they bring to my life, how much I care about them. I’m so tired of the divisiveness. I’m so tired of it.
Amen to that. It’s a challenge, right? It has shaped the way that we operate in 2021 and beyond. What I will say is this is a chance. This is an opportunity for us to reframe how we approach conflict. You know, because those are conflict situations. When you make, when you have an argument, a disagreement, and then you make it polarizing, you have jumped so many different places to get to the extreme that there isn’t a chance for that to come back to Well, what’s really going on. And that’s a part of this process. It’s a part of repairing the harm caused when we find ourselves in these situations. You and I simply having a disagreement about something does not make us enemies. It does not make us, you know, polarizing where I can’t associate with you.
But yet the narrative that has been written today is that. I say, as leaders, reframe that, I say, let’s back that up and really push the notion of what does it mean to have discourse? What does it mean to have arguments? What does it mean to be in a place where, you know, my values, my beliefs still may be different at times? Because that brings value to the organization, brings value to the people that I associate myself with. I don’t want to be. I don’t want to hang out with people who are all like me. That makes life really boring. And it doesn’t allow us to move forward as organizations, either from a leadership standpoint. Right. So how do you, how do you navigate, how do you create these environments for which this lives in a healthy way? That’s the key.
The Ladder of Inference
Jenn DeWall:
So hopefully, this podcast can change people’s perspectives, because again, it’s our role as leaders to unite and value those differences. I know you wanted to come back to the ladder of inference. What the heck does that mean? This is an expression I’ve never heard before. So what is the ladder of inference?
Kevin Mowers:
Yeah, so, you know, for me, this is, this is probably one of the first critical steps in helping resolve the conflict situation. So if you find yourself in these conflict situations, I want to give you some tips and things that you can do to actually help resolve conflict in a healthy way. Right? So the first and foremost is this notion of a ladder of inference. So, we have decisions that we have to make all over the place. Right. You know, think about driving, for example, how many decisions do you make while driving a car?
Thousands, right? You have to collect data. You have to make decisions like you are constantly making these inferences of things that are happening. The same thing applies in relationships when somebody does something you know. We have to make decisions in order to move forward. Otherwise, we’d be frozen literally in time. We wouldn’t go anymore. Okay. So let me go back to an example you gave earlier. Okay? So you’re my boss, I’m your employee, right? You schedule a nine o’clock meeting. I show up at nine 30. I knew the meeting was scheduled at nine. But I’m showing up at nine 30. Now you can sit there and go. Kevin knew about that meeting. Why was Kevin late? Well, he deliberately came in late. Well, if he’s coming in deliberately late and he does this on a regular basis, he’s always late. That means Kevin is a bad employee. I can’t count on Kevin. He’s unreliable. Which means I’ve got to let Kevin go. All right. It’s not working now. All right.
Does that seem unreasonable? No. If I’m always late. Okay. Is that a conflict situation? Yeah, it’s prolonged, right? It’s caused an impact. You scheduled a meeting, and I’m not there. There’s, there are all kinds of things that come out of that. Right? Well, let’s back this up a little bit. So you jumped from Kevin’s always late to Kevin needs to get fired. What’s really going on? All right. I scheduled a meeting at nine o’clock. He didn’t show up until nine-thirty. Let’s engage in a conversation. Jenn says to Kevin, Kevin, why are you late? What’s going on? Kevin responds back with Jenn. I apologize. I have to drop my kid off at eight-forty-five for school, and traffic getting out of school right now at the beginning of the year is terrible. The soonest I can get to work is nine-fifteen. You know, then once I got here at nine-fifteen today, I couldn’t find a parking spot. I got here as quickly as I could. Okay. I understand that. So this has happened quite a bit. Yes, Jenn is the beginning of the school year, three weeks in, and people can’t figure out how to drop their kids off and get them out on time. I think this is going to change. I think it’s going to get different. Okay. Kevin, what do we need to do to help that conversation? I think if we scheduled nine-thirty meetings instead of nine for the next two months, it might help me out. Okay. Different conversation, right? Different outcomes. It’s not getting fired. Kevin doesn’t feel like I don’t want to talk in the third person, but the course of that conversation changes.
So when I talk about the letter of inference, what I tell people is, all right, when these things happen, our response is going to be emotional. So we put that in check. Don’t jump up the ladder of inference to the point of drawing bad conclusions. Walk that step-down, walk up the rung of ladder one step at a time, find out the right pieces of information. When you get to the top of the ladder, essentially, what you want to do is you want to take action, right? If we’re standing at the base of the ladder, we have all this data. We have to figure out what data is relevant. We have to figure out how to interpret it. We have to then make conclusions that allow us to take action. We can’t do that if we’re making rash decisions.
So the first tip I have as far as resolving conflict in a healthy way is to stop personally, and make sure that you’re collecting the right piece of the data. Make sure you’re having the conversations, the dialogue, asking the right questions. That’s going to help you land in a place where you can then make decisions. Okay. Does that make sense?
Jenn DeWall:
Yeah. And I think that’s an important real-life example. I know in my experience in HR, I had a similar situation. There was an employee that had some personal things. I think they were actually also school-related for her children. And she had asked the leader if she could, you know, they had already had a little friction. Right. And it was something unrelated. And then she asked him for two days of the week if she could adjust her working hours to later because of school drop-off. So it was something around that. And this leader took it all the way up the ladder to getting HR involved, to thinking like, do we need to let this person go? When in actuality, this person was a great employee. There was, I would say, just an individual thing that was going on with their kid, with their schooling, that she just needed a little bit of accommodation, not a reason to lose that employee.
And my heart, even hearing that employee, I was just more from an HR perspective. Bless the hearts of like. You know the type of employee relations. HR professionals have to, you know, work and manage through because some of them are just, you know, it’s a result of someone, as you said, going all the way up that ladder of inference. And making a decision instead of being like, is there something I’m missing here? Can we do this a different way? And then you watch the employee being upset. You watch the manager being upset. When it didn’t have to get to that point. So, I really appreciate you sharing that because there are a lot of examples. I’m sure other leaders can think of where if we had just backed up and walked, you know, down and then back up the ladder, we could probably see the situation in another way. So that’s one tip. So what is the, so the ladder of inference is one tip. What’s the next tip?
Managing Conflict Through Better Storytelling
Kevin Mowers:
Yeah. So the second tip I’m going to give you is storytelling. So I’d mentioned storytelling a few times now, and I mentioned just in that last example of the ladder of inference, understanding and trying to learn more, the importance of storytelling when it comes to conflict is huge. I would say probably the biggest thing you can do to help resolve conflict. Okay.
Jenn DeWall:
What do you mean? Storytelling! I don’t have time to hear or listen to your story.
Kevin Mowers:
I’m saying, take the time. Because you know what happens? I think we know how to tell stories. I think we can, we know what that looks like, so I’m not going to spend time there. But what happens when you’re telling stories is one it’s allowing you to understand the other person’s perspective. It’s helping you get a deeper insight on what that emotional response is. Asking the right questions in those stories. That’s going to be critical. You know, so dialogues are great. In, in the restorative justice world, we have things called circle dialogues in which there are people that are involved, you bring the people together in a circle. We’ll talk about it
Jenn DeWall:
Like a circle formation –
Kevin Mowers:
Yeah, a circle formation, but that, you know, the point is people that are- everyone who’s impacted everyone who’s involved. They share their stories so that everyone gets to hear that. Using a trained facilitator, a trained mediator, to help ask those questions. Those are all good things to help tell a story. The other reason storytelling is important and why it needs to happen when it comes to resolving conflict is that it breaks down walls. Okay. So when we are in these conflict situations, the first thing we do is have these emotional responses. The second thing we do is build these walls. They’re defensive walls.
Jenn DeWall:
Oh, I’m a professional wall builder. And by the way, I was teasing about storytelling before, but I am definitely a professional wall builder, even though I know better.
Kevin Mowers:
And also, we tell these stories, we ask people to share their stories. We listen to help break those walls down. That’s the significance of it. You know, it helps us understand, as people who are trying to resolve the conflict, understand the impact, the harm that’s being caused of it. But it’s also allowing the walls to come down because if the walls are still there when it comes to trying to implement a solution, nothing’s going to happen. We want those defensive walls to come down so that we could talk about, you know, the next best thing in this process, tip number three, which is finding solutions that address the harms. Okay. So number one, tip, check your ladder of inference. You know, tip number two, storytelling, find ways for people to share their stories when they’re in these situations. The third thing is to find ways to repair the harm.
Kevin Mowers:
Okay. Let me talk about one thing real quick. Before I jump into this, there’s a difference between rules and impact. Okay. Our society is driven by rules. Think about it for a second. If you, if you drive down the road right now and you go a hundred miles an hour, it’s against the law, right? What’s going to happen to you?
Jenn DeWall:
Yeah. I could get a speeding ticket. I could hurt someone.
Kevin Mowers:
Yup. Yup. If that happens too many times, you’re going to lose your license. They can lock you up, insert whatever situation. Typically, there’s going to be a rule that’s tied to that our society is driven off of that premise. So if you break the rule, then the question becomes, how do I punish you? All right.
Jenn DeWall:
What’s the consequence.
Kevin Mowers:
What’s the consequence in this conversation. What I’m saying is, instead of saying, what is the rule? I’m saying, what is the impact of that rule being broken? So in that specific situation that we just talked about, you driving a hundred miles an hour, you could get in a wreck, get severely hurt, you might hurt somebody else. You’re causing an officer to have to pull you over to deal with you when they could be dealing with someone else. I mean, you could go on as far as what the level impact is, but there is a difference between this notion of rules versus impact. What I’m saying is a tip number three— is focus on the impact, focus on the harm.
Okay. Go back to my wife and me, for example. Okay. You know, we, we, you know, we can get an argument on how our finances are used, right? You know, where we spend money, how we spend it, all that stuff comes into play. I could get really upset about her spending 40 bucks at Kohl’s, or I can come back to the conversation and say, Hey, I’m struggling with this because that $40 could have paid for the kids’ basketball camp this year. You know? So it’s not only impacting me because I’m upset about that. But you know, it’s impacting my daughter. She can’t do, she can’t do basketball camp. And that’s just an example. Right. I am focusing on the rules. So instead of my wife’s spending $40, I’m not worried about that. That made me upset. I had that moment. I’m then talking to her about all right, the impact of that then, is this. That’s the difference? Okay. So when we find ourselves in these complex situations at work, somebody showed up late, somebody broke a rule, somebody did X, Y, and Z, okay. That lives, that has its place.
Focus on Impact Instead of Blame
Kevin Mowers:
But then our conversations lead to then shift to what is the impact? What is the harm that’s caused by that situation? All right. When we check our inferences, when we story-tell to understand the full, you know, aspect of what this looks like, we understand a little bit better what that impact and what that harm is. That then allows us to focus on solutions that address those harms first and foremost. That’s how you start resolving conflict in a healthy way. That’s what leads you down the path of saying, all right, there’s a solution to this. There isn’t an extreme polarizing. I’m right. You’re wrong. You broke a rule. I’m going to punish you. Okay. This happened. Let’s figure out how to resolve it in a way that’s going to make a difference.
Jenn DeWall:
I think you pointed or to a place that I think a lot of people get it wrong, right? They miss the opportunity. Because when we think about storytelling, it’s connecting people to the big picture. But to remember that your new hires, people that might be new to the workforce, are not going to be thinking big picture because that’s just not what they’ve needed to do, or they haven’t been a part of your organization to really understand that. And your storytelling allows them to see their impact. And without it, without connecting to the why you can keep telling them to do the exact same thing. But when they don’t know why they don’t necessarily have the motivation, or they don’t understand the consequence of not doing something. And maybe it’s your, even if you’re thinking about that employee, because I know that they’re there that are like, I hate the grunt work. I don’t like the stuff that’s redundant. Well, you know what, you’re the stuff that you perceive as grunt work is actually essential to how we treat our customers. It’s so important. And so I think, you know, just taking the time to slow down, to speed up and actually start with that storytelling allows you to find the solution.
So I love that, but why, so why else? Because you have other benefits, like why else? So when we focus on identifying the impact, which I also thought of even having, I know this as a problem, not a perfect example as it relates to that, but this month at Crestcom, we’re talking about, or we share the story of Sully and landing the plane on the Hudson. And when I think about, you know, some of the, I guess, feedback that he received after this, it wasn’t great, right? He didn’t follow protocol. He, but yet when you look at the impact, he saved all of those lives and landed it, you know, appropriately. And I even think about that. And sometimes, yeah, we have to determine and not only stick to the rule but think about the outcomes that we’re getting. So not sure where that is relevant, but I did connect that.
Kevin Mowers:
If it’s relevant, right? Because I think that forced the aviation industry to reframe how they approach a situation like that. Right? You have rules, he broke the rules. Let’s punish him. Well, actually, no, we have rules. He improvised. He actually did all the right things, saved lives. We need to check ourselves. We need to back this inference up a little bit. We heard his story. We heard what really took place. Let’s figure out solutions. Then that makes sense. We’re not going to punish them. We’re not going to fire him. We’re actually going to hold them to esteem in what we do. So, so thank you for sharing that. You said something that kind of triggered a few thoughts, you know, the why. Why is this important? You know, why should we look at inferences? Why should we story-tell? You know, why should we focus on solutions that think about the harm and impact? When we start thinking through those lenses first and foremost, what that does is, is it rebuilds trust.
Repairing Harm
Kevin Mowers:
So when we’re in these situations where conflict happens, trust usually as the first thing that said question, okay, to what degree? Totally different conversation. But we allow ourselves to start rebuilding trust in that conversation. The other thing it does is it advocates for the needs of the things that are taking place in those situations, typically the emotional needs, but they’re also may be other needs at play. Right? So that, that latter example I gave you, I need to drop my kids off at school. My needs are there. I can’t. I can’t just send my kids and say good luck. Right? You get to advocate. You get to actually help me in this. You’re advocating for my needs. So building trust, advocating for people’s needs in these situations are important. We can respond with purpose and intention, which is huge. How many times have you ever been in a situation where somebody says, Hey, I’m sorry, Jenn. And you’re like, yeah. I don’t think you are. You know, that really didn’t feel like that didn’t feel like you truly are apologetic or sincere.
Well, you are repairing harm. Having somebody actually do things to repair the harm demonstrates purpose, demonstrates intentionality behind us, moving forward through this conflict situation, getting to a resolution. The other piece that I’ll throw in there. And you mentioned accountability several times, and I’ve yet to mention that it is a huge part of this conversation for a couple of different reasons. But when you engage in storytelling, when you engage in the social checking where biases aren’t inference that are at play, when you focus on repairing the harm, that’s where true accountability takes place. True accountability happens when somebody understands the impact that they cause to somebody else, you can quote me on that. It’s actually in a book, okay? Whose story?
The little book of restorative justice we’ll get to that. But accountability is a big piece of this know. So we, we, we’re driving accountability by engaging in those processes. And accountability needs to be present. You know, if I was to say, what are the staples? What are the foundations of being restorative, thinking about impact and harm when it comes to conflict, it’s rebuilding trust. It’s advocating for people’s needs. It’s responding with purpose, and it’s active accountability. Those pieces have to be a part of that question. I often get this point in the conversation, is great. You know, this sounds awesome. You know, also sounds kind of magical. And I don’t know if it’s going to work in every situation.
Let me, let me address that because that’s real. It’s not. This stuff is not applicable in every situation. I think it’s applicable in most situations, but this doesn’t work when 1 – people aren’t actively accountable in the process.
Conflict Management Requires Real Accountability
Kevin Mowers:
If you have somebody who doesn’t want to engage, if you have somebody that doesn’t take ownership over this, if you have somebody who’s just downright dismissing the situation, this isn’t going to work. It’s going to be a real challenge. You’re going to be an uphill battle. Not saying it can’t work, but you’re going to be in a battle. Basic moral, good versus evil. Okay. Somebody can’t comprehend what is good or bad. And I’m talking about the worst of worst in our society. This is where it doesn’t play out. Okay. So am I advocating for restorative justice when it comes to the, you know, murderers, you know, that do the most bridges, grievous crimes in our society, not necessarily but– But there are examples in which restorative justice has been used in murder situations. Okay. That could be a whole other conversation, but I’m not dismissing that at the same time it makes it challenging.
The other piece, I think is probably the most important, is when there is such an impact, such a harm, cause that it can not be repaired. The challenge was that we had to look here internally and say, all right, can this be repaired with me first and foremost? I’m going to make the argument. In most cases I can, if our hearts are in the right place and our hearts are and move forward in the way that we’ve been talking today, there’s a chance. But there are situations that happen in which harm can’t be repaired. You know, for example, you’re at work. Boss is constantly doing things. You’ve done all that you can possibly do, you know, to address the situation, but yet it continues and you continue to get impacted emotionally by this. Well, maybe it’s time for you to leave. Maybe it’s time to find a new place to work. Right. maybe that conflict situation that has then become a prolonged, significant impact, it can’t be resolved.
Jenn DeWall:
I think that’s an important piece to bring up because a lot of people might still be tolerating situations that aren’t great for them, whether that’s in a relationship or whether that’s even your work environment, whether or not that’s healthy and productive and a place that you need to be is that sometimes there has to be the point where we say it can’t be repaired. And I’m not going to endure XYZ to be able to try and live off of hope. Like, I’m just going to say it can’t be repaired. And some things it can be,
Kevin Mowers:
That’s the difference, right? So you at least then have a reason versus, Boy, Jenn, I just don’t like you. And I don’t like what you believe, thus, I’m not going to have anything to do with you. Like there is a difference, right? It’s not polarizing. And there’s a reason as to why you make that decision.
Jenn DeWall:
Yeah. And that, I mean, I think the accountability piece is huge just for each of us as individuals, you might have to take a hard look at yourself. You might have to reflect on some situations that maybe you’ve had conflict, just like myself. I don’t love how I showed up in my twenties. I think that there are people that probably loved working with me. And there are definitely people that were like if I don’t see Jenn ever again, its totally fine. And I, you know, I respect that, but it’s, it is hard. I don’t want to say it’s hard. It’s, it’s not even easy for me to share these moments of imperfection and mistakes. Right. It’s hard, but it has to start with that because if you don’t own it, you can’t control it. And if don’t own the fact that sometimes I get too emotionally riled in situations, then I can’t manage those emotions in those situations. Or I can’t even make a repair attempt to apologize. Hey, I have a tendency to XYZ. And so I love that. Just talking about, you know, if we don’t take accountability, there’s no, there’s nothing that’s going to happen.
Learning to Manage Conflict is a Journey
Kevin Mowers:
No, that’s why I said what I said at the beginning. For me, this is a journey. It’s one that I don’t see it ever ending in any way, shape or form. You know, I have talked about conflict for years now. You know, I’m studying it. I’m passionate about it, but I hate, I don’t like conflict still. Don’t in fact, I’m probably the worst at conflict in my immediate family, with the ones who I love the most, which is really a sad story. Okay. And I admit that, you know, but I also admit it saying not there’s an opportunity here for me to grow, to become better. I want to be a better dad. I want to be a better husband. I want to be a better business owner. I want to do things better day to day. I want to move hearts. I want to move my heart in this conversation. Right. Like that’s the difference. And that’s why I say it’s a journey. It’s a process. It does not end in the thing that, you know, conflict and master it and will never happen again to you. Again, I will challenge and I will say, nah, that’s not real. I’m gonna, I’m gonna call BS on that one.
Jenn DeWall:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. Kevin, I think there are just a lot of really interesting considerations in terms of why we can’t resolve it, how we can resolve it. What are any final thoughts that you would like to share with our audience before we wrap up?
Kevin Mowers:
Yeah. Yeah. I think what comes to mind that maybe I haven’t talked about yet is one, if it’s not, if it’s not uncomfortable, you’re probably not doing it right. And I’ve often said that in context of asking the right questions, are we doing all that we can do? But when it comes to the reality of how these things play out in the work that we need to do with it, there’s intentionality behind it. There has to be purpose behind it. And if that’s not uncomfortable, you’re probably not engaging in the right conversation. So I would say, keep that in mind in the conversation, you know, this work has always done with people, not to people. So if we want to have a good, healthy conversation around conflict or a conflict situation, we do that with each other. I don’t do that to you as my employee.
I don’t do that to you as my friend. I don’t do that to you as my wife, we do this together as an example. And again, I think for me, the biggest thing, our, all this is, is think about the harm. Think about the impact. You know, if we’re focusing on that, that first and foremost, it sets the catalyst to every other facet of how we engage in storytelling, how we engage in how we look at our inferences that we’re making our biases and those conversations. So, you know, think about those things. You know, the three tips, inferences, storytelling, thinking about harm. It needs to be uncomfortable to some degree to do it well, to do it right. And we do this with people. It’s all about the relationships and the people that we have.
Jenn DeWall:
We are in the business of working with people, not robots. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. I just love your passion for this. It makes me even think that I want to have you back to even talk about what are questions that we can ask to help people embrace conflict, because there are, you know, you talked about questions that there are still people that are like, I don’t want to go into that discomfort that you’re recommending Kevin, but maybe it’s just giving people some guidance on how to navigate those conversations, which is what we can bring you back for. I would love to have it. Kevin, how can people connect with you?
Kevin Mowers:
Best way. Shoot me an email at kevin.mowers@crestcom.com. I’m on all social media platforms. Well, LinkedIn is probably the best place to find me. Kevin Mowers is where you can find me on all those platforms. Jenn, I appreciate the time.
Jenn DeWall:
Oh my gosh, Kevin, thank you for what you do. Thank you for just developing the leaders in Ohio. But obviously, now you’re touching the hearts of a broader audience, and we’re grateful for you.
Kevin Mowers:
Thanks, Jenn. I appreciate it.
Jenn DeWall:
Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I hope you’ve enjoyed the conversation with Kevin, and if you want to connect with him, you can connect with him at LinkedIn, https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-mowers/, or you can send them an email at Kevin.Mowers@crestcom.com and also connect with them on any of your social media platforms. If you enjoyed today’s episode or know someone that could benefit from talking about conflict and finding healthier ways to resolve it, share this episode with them, share it with your team members, share it with your leaders because we know that when we resolve conflict in a better way, great things can happen. And if you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast, streaming service.
