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On this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, we did our first three-person interview! Host Jenn DeWall sat down with Hilary Blair and Dr. Robin Miller, who co-own the organization ARTiculate Real & Clear. They coach corporate teams and individuals to elevate presence, communication, and connection. ARTiculate clients include AWS, Lumen, the ACLU and MD Anderson. Join us as we talk all about receiving feedback.
Full Transcript Below:
 Jenn DeWall:
Hi everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall – let me tell you a little bit about each of the individuals that we’re going to be talking to today. Hilary is a professional communication coach with years of experience as a voiceover artist and stage actor, she has been coaching training, and facilitating for 35 plus years. She guides and challenges others to communicate more powerfully. These include the enthusiastic and the reluctant alike and an interesting fact about Hilary Blair is that she once worked on a sheep ranch in Montana and binges on the show Heartland on Netflix.
Now, let me tell you about our other guests, Dr. Robin Miller, who is an energized executive coach, whose primary purpose is to support others, to be more adaptable and embrace the shifts needed to connect to their teams and their clients. She has seen leaders make amazing shifts through difficult situations and by making intentional choices, her insight is that the most difficult leaders and employees usually have the hugest heart without the quote “know-how” of how to share it, drawing on their experiences in the performing arts, Hilary and Robin highlight the nuances of individual communication. So their clients will thrive while being seen and understood. And today the three of us are going to be sitting down and flipping the script on typical feedback conversations. We are going to be talking about what you can do to be a better receiver of feedback. Enjoy
Meet the Co-Founders of ARTiculate Real & Clear
Jenn DeWall:
Hi everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit, I am so happy to sit down with the co-owners of ARTiculate. Now they are new to you, but they are not new to me. And I know today we are going to be talking all about feedback, but here’s the twist. It’s not just about how you give feedback. It’s how you receive it. And here, I want to introduce you for the first time in Crestcom history. We are actually going to be introduced, interviewing two people at once. So today on the show I have Hilary Blair and Dr. Robin Miller, could you please just both go ahead and introduce yourselves to the Crestcom Leadership Habit audience.
Hilary Blair:
Yes. Hello, Hilary here. And I am labeled as the CEO, when you co-own a business, you kind of trade skills back and forth the title CEO and co-founder, I am obsessed with people’s voices being literally and figuratively and as leaders. How do we make sure that we remain in relationship with the people, with whom we work and lead and how do we make sure that we understand that we need to listen as much as we speak the difference between being a coach and a leader and all of those different elements, making sure, basically that we know which role we’re playing when and when do we pause and allow for the other like Dr. Miller?
Dr. Robin Miller:
Hi, I’m Dr. Robin Miller. Then I also co-own ARTiculate Real & Clear. I spend my days being the COO for the business and CFO. And then I also spend the majority of my time doing executive coaching. So I’m the person that gets to sit with people who are delivering the feedback, as well as people who are being promoted up through companies who need to figure out how do I receive the feedback, and both sides learning, know what are the rules? What goes outside the box? What speaks to today’s environment and how do we make it so that when we’re trying to move our careers and individuals forward for people that were or managing or leading, what’s the most effective way to do that? Not just speak words into the air yet, have those words heard and help people learn from them. So it’s great to be here with you today.
What does ARTiculate do?
Jenn DeWall:
Oh my gosh. I’m so happy. And just one of you, because I want our audience to know what you do with ARTiculate Real & Clear because you go into organizations and you help teams and leaders. Could you tell them what you guys do? Because I would love for our audience to know this is why we want to listen to both Dr. Robin Miller and Hilary Blair right now. What do you guys do at ARTiculate Real & Clear?
Hilary Blair:
We are committed to guiding inspiring launching people into the conversations that connect authentically. We use the discipline and the techniques of the performing arts. So ARTiculate- all of us come from professional performing arts backgrounds. And we are using that, that platform focus. And again, I will say the discipline, you see that I’m avoiding the words:Â tips and tricks. Because we find that when people gather tips and tricks and even reading them without having them incorporated into their being and how that, that tip when it becomes a technique is influenced by the individual. And that’s what we learned in the performing arts. Everybody can play the same role. Let’s take a Shakespeare play, let’s take any contemporary role. We can all play that role. What is that individual energy spin focus, the impact that we bring to it?
So that individuality super important. And we really, the big bucket is presence and presence is a verb, not a destination. So instead of it being a check box, do they have presence? We say, are we doing, are we stepping into, are we activating the elements that allow me to be present in my connecting to you with my voice? My words? Is the message organized in the correct way? What does it mean to be present? And then of course we have presence. We need to focus on the verb aspect, not the checkbox, they have presence or executive presence. And we even now are exploring the idea of executive presence is a term that carries with it, some weight of the past and some ideas and perhaps constrictions of the past that don’t allow for the nuances of our changing leadership and cohorts and organizations. So we are saying authentic leadership presence.
Receiving Feedback Requires Boundaries
Jenn DeWall:
Yes. And I love that you help people with presence because receiving feedback- coming from a person that did not apply executive presence and a few rounds of feedback when I was in my twenties- it’s essential because our feedback that’s when someone is being meaningful with us and saying, I’m going to give you some feedback. Maybe, you know, maybe it’s coming from a place of love. Maybe it’s not, but if they’re still taking the time to give feedback, maybe we can turn our ear up and actually gain something. So let’s take it out because we’re talking again, we’re flipping the script on you. You might be thinking that we’re talking about how to give feedback. We’re not, we’re talking about how to receive feedback and you guys have used the phrase feedback from another angle. Like, so when we think about just beginning our journey and how we can be better receivers of feedback, what would be the starting place for that?
Hilary Blair:
So if I turn to you, Jenn, and I said, Hey, I have some feedback for you. What we would work with you on is you get to say, really? You want it now, do you want it later? Do you want one thing? What is the goal of it? So if I’m coming to you and saying, I have it, you get to establish some boundaries. And that presence means that you keep your tone and connection while saying, great. I love feedback. Can we do it tomorrow? Can we do it later today? What are you looking for the goal to be of the feedback? Really making sure that as the receiver, you set the boundaries with enthusiasm, right? The idea being that so often you’re like, Oh, okay, I’m ready. Go. And we shut down. We don’t remain in relationship. We tend to have a wall come down and we’re bracing ourselves.
So if you come to me and say, you have feedback for me, I’m like, great. I want to hear it. But not great right now. And it can be having to do with where I am, how I’m feeling right now, other things going on, what happened yesterday. And the other element of it is that I get to come to you and say, Jenn, I would like some feedback. What I’m looking for is affirmation. Here’s what bup, bup, bup, bup, or Jenn, I’m looking for some feedback. I’d really like some input. Boom, boom, boom. So I am establishing first. Or I have Jenn, I would like some feedback on this. I really want a decision. I am setting the boundaries initially for what I want and what I’m looking for. And if you go wandering off and start giving me other things, how do I recognize that I get to have the power- maybe that word power can be too much for people. You simply get to own your space and what you’re receiving. So I get to establish my boundaries and go, “Great, Jenn. That feedback’s awesome. What I’m really looking for right now is this…” It can be hard, Robin. I know Robin, you have Robin’s ready. Robin is ready to jump in.
Feedback or Feed-forward?
Dr. Robin Miller:
I think because we believe words create worlds. And as a coach, I would love to think that everything that was ever offered to me in feedback was really what I would call feed-forward. We’re giving someone some input so that as they move forward, they’re able to take that in and make a difference. And I think even if we use the word feed-forward to say, Hilary is my employee, and I say, I need to give you some feed-forward that opens her up to being able to hear it even more. And then she can say like, she was just doing, Oh, that feed forward’s great. I’m able to hear one or two things right now. And if there are others kind of like putting it in the meeting parking lot, can we revisit that later? But let’s just stick with these one or two things so I can process them. I think also with this feed-forward is that we often what I have found in my experience, coaching leaders- panic conversations are difficult and it usually involves this feed-forward and we will get into a meeting and we will waste the first 45 minutes of a meeting because we don’t feel comfortable providing the feed-forward. And then we dump it on you. And then it doesn’t give you the opportunity, which you should have of asking questions or having a dialogue or response. So you have the receiver of the feed-forward should anticipate that you get to have time to process it and discuss it and be with it. And we as leaders need to learn not to dump it at the last minute because it’s more difficult for us.
Jenn DeWall:
Yeah. Oh my gosh. That’s a great perspective. And I can probably think of a few Leaders who might be thinking right now. Yeah. Do I delay my feedback because it’s uncomfortable? Absolutely. And I love the concept of feed-forward, whether, and I guess that would go for both, like thinking about is your feedback, helping them develop. And if you’re in that feedback chair, Hey, remembering, this is helping me grow. I love that. I’ve got a question. I know this wasn’t in our list of questions, but one of the things that, you know, you guys really emphasize is putting that power into that person that’s receiving the feedback. Like letting them know that, you know, Hilary, you had talked about checking in with yourself, is it the right time? How do you say that to your boss? If it’s not the right time, if you’re like, could I have some space? Like how do you do that? Because you might often feel like the boss is going to give me feedback. I’ve got to take it because they’re here. So how do you, what would, what advice would you give?
Hilary Blair:
First? You blame us,
Jenn DeWall:
Write down their names, blame them,
Hilary Blair:
Say, I was listening to this podcast which was suggesting that feedback becomes more active because it’s more received as more able to be absorbed when the receiver is in dialogue with the giver and setting up and establishing some of the boundaries. So I would love to suggest it probably it has to be before that moment when the boss suggests I need to give feedback. So in a meeting, maybe a team meeting, Hey, can we try this? That we really check in with ourselves? Is this the time? So it’s a, it’s a culture shift. It’s a request for trying something on and seeing if it works, if it’s right at the moment, you can still call on us. Hey, I’m having one of those days. I so want your feedback. I would never have thought to do this before I was listening to a podcast and they suggested, to be honest, Hey, I’m not quite in the place to receive it today. There are things on my mind, things going on, I want to hear it. Can we plan for an hour later? Can we do it tomorrow? That kind of thing. So establishing the boundaries with the understanding that it’s, self-awareness, that’s guiding it.
Receive Feedback Like Performers- In a Group
Hilary Blair:
And Jenn, I wanted to add that the fascinating thing coming from the performance world to the business world. And we’ve been here a long time. Now, initially, what was fascinating was like, why are people so wacked out by feedback? What is going on feed-forward? Like why do we even have to call it feed-forward? Why don’t we just call it notes? Because as actors, we get notes, we get notes in order to work better as a team towards the show, like, what are we working on? Hey, Jan, I don’t know if you’ve learned your lines, but it doesn’t seem like it. What’s going on? Can you come in faster? The blocking we have there, isn’t working all kinds of things. I’m not sure we’ve figured out exactly what’s happening in that scene. Let’s take a moment and kind of step back and figure it out.
None of that happens alone. It happens as a cast, as a team, as a group feed-forward, notes. Feedback is something that we all need to hear. So I know what you heard. And then we can extrapolate to the sports world, right? The teams get feedback generally altogether after I was going to say after rehearsal, after a practice or with actors after rehearsal and the idea being, I need to hear the different feedback that’s coming in. Somehow the business world has isolated it and we’ve done it more and more. Make sure you’re giving feedback in a safe environment where you’re alone, where no one else is hearing it like that idea.
As the giver of feedback in the perfect world, I would love to invite teams to get feedback together. I have tried that it doesn’t work so well when you’re not working with non-theater or sportspeople because, the corporate and business world is so programmed that it’s private in what I’m working on. If other people are hearing that it doesn’t have that sense of team or safety at all. So I’m throwing that out as something in the world we live in the world, we want to live in. I think that the arts and sports world can really inform. That notes and feed-forward can be a group activity and a very supportive group activity. It will take a pretty major shift. So that’s something to think about. And coming from that world, I was startled by all the boundaries that were needed around feed-forward. So to Robin’s point, yes, feed-forward to both sides of it, training us as leaders or colleagues and how to give feed forward. And as the receiver, how to understand how we’re feeling about it, what we need, how much we can take in. And when might be the right time.
Give and Receive More Positive Feedback
Dr. Robin Miller:
You make me think of two things in this discussion. What you were just talking about Hilary is that we in a corporate environment, and I worked in corporate as well. I have a music background, a Ph.D. in music, and a corporate background. We often set our metrics to performance or data as teams. Like you get bonuses because of how the team performed. And you met certain goals. We don’t often set metrics around how are we teaming? So we’re giving people feedback as individuals, saying either, well, first of all, we don’t celebrate enough. The feedback is never really ever positive feedback a lot, or because they say our brains can take in five times more thoughts than positive. We tend to go to the challenging or the negativity of information. So if we challenged ourselves as leaders and individuals with our teaming to say, how are we moving this forward as a team?
We’re all part of the play. We’re all cast members. If someone’s not quite jelling, what is my responsibility? Not this putting everything as a leader on one person, but thinking, how are we moving this together in this environment to get the great outcome? The other thought is that we often leave our feedback until 360s or until performance reviews. I’m like, Oh, no, not feedback or feed-forward and performance review that happened six months ago. And I’ve worked it out already with someone. So why are you telling me this now? I’m finding more and more people are like, tell me at the moment, like let’s come to the table together at the moment so that we can work through it rather than holding it for a performance review six months from now. And there’s absolutely nothing I can do about that.
Jenn DeWall:
As you both said such, I mean, I love first and foremost, the like, why wait, absolutely. Why the heck are we waiting? Why are we pushing it off? Like, why aren’t we making that a priority? But I also love the challenge that I think you are both like suggesting and throwing out there. Why aren’t we able to start to hear feedback as a team process feedback as a team? Why does it always have to be so individual? And I guess I think about not that I had a professional career in athletics, but I did play sport. You know, I did play sports in high school and middle school. And I do think about that. We, you know, if we were in the middle of a game, they were giving us feedback as a team. They weren’t looking at us on our breaks and saying, okay, who can I talk to? Who can I talk to?
And it didn’t matter if you were on the bench or if you were there, we all had to take that feedback into consideration. I love the way that you’re suggesting that. And you’re right, because there’s absolutely, I hear the word feedback and maybe it’s just like, Hey, can I give you some feedback? And in my head, I’m either like, Oh my gosh. Or like, you know, scared, annoyed, whatever that might be, right. Depending on who it’s coming from. And you’re right. I wish it could be something like, Hey, here’s some notes or here’s some consideration. So I love both of the things that you both just shared. Just there’s so much there of different ways. We can even start to look at how to view feedback or notes is just information. And I, again, love that performance piece that, you know, again, if you’re in the theater, you understand that you’re putting on a show and isn’t that what we’re all doing as a team anyways, like you’re, you’re so spot-on on that.
Are You In a Good Place to Receive Feedback?
Jenn DeWall:
And I don’t hear enough people talk about that because we are so focused on that, of being, you know, just it’s the individual. And the last thing that I would add on the beginning of, you know, asking someone for feedback, how powerful to know, going back to presence that if you’re not in the mindset, like I’m an emotional person, right. So if I let’s say pour my heart into something, I don’t do as well with it. I already know that. And I’m not in an immediately ready place for feedback, I need to like calm myself down and go through the motions and then come back. So I really appreciate you, I guess, giving permission to ask for that, because I don’t want to show up in hysterics and crying in a feedback interview, which is what I do when I’m not prepared. And there might be someone else that does that too. And I’m sure that my boss or whoever’s giving that feedback is like, Oh my gosh, I can’t, how do I get out of this? So you can avoid the awkward conversations by giving someone permission. I love that!
Hilary Blair:
And sometimes we’re full. So emotional, yes. And also full. And if someone’s adding feed-forward and some information and our cup is full, it just spills over. And it seems like we’re not receiving it. And we aren’t, but probably not for the reason that is being assumed. It’s not that we don’t want it is that there’s no room for it. So making sure as a receiver that we have space for it, and some of the language that we use and that I’ve learned along my journey is to use the language of what worked, what worked and what do we need more of, less of or different. So what worked for me? Boom, boom, boom. And if we want this person to rock, we want this project to rock. What do we need more of, less of, or a different, that energy is different than what I liked, or this is what happened when this happened.
Hilary Blair:
Now I want them I’m into my mind, came that situation where someone is being pointed- it’s being pointed out to them that something went wrong. There are moments where you need to say, Whoa, this happened and we need to discuss this. Yes, we’re discussing more the idea of how do we create a culture of feed-forward. What’s working? What do we want more of, less of different. How do we have that be part of our process and our flow versus every six months, once a year. And it’s so far back that we’re not even sure. And we were different people. Then the world was different. I think the pandemic right now is giving us first-time data feedback on the fact that what we suggested a month ago wouldn’t even be what we suggested now. Like every time we turn around, everything is changing so much or not as, not in the way we thought. So the idea of getting feedback from six months ago, right now, you’re like, whatever. Sure. I’m sure I did that six months ago. Who knows? So what worked is a different language than what I liked. And it’s amazing how often we say I liked, I liked when you did that, that I liked that. And you’re like, cool. What was working?
Jenn DeWall:
I love that language around what works or like, here’s what happened. Let me tell you where you went around. Like, okay. Yeah. Barrett, lay into me for the next 60 minutes. Instead of saying like there’s a much different, more constructive and it feels collaborative. You know, one of the things that we had talked about earlier was in our pre-meeting was, are we creating bridges or walls? And I love that. Could you, could you explain what you, what you both meant by that? What are you doing if you’re creating bridges or walls and feedback,
Is the Feedback Building Bridges or Putting Up Walls?
Dr. Robin Miller:
For me, bridges you know, there are a lot of different models out there when it comes to giving feedback. And it’s often one way that Hilary was talking about the situation, you know, when the situation happened, here’s what I observed. And here’s the impact that had on people. If we were to get curious with the person, rather than leading with our perspective, we create a bridge rather than saying, here’s the situation, that’s a wall. Because that’s your perspective. If you say, Hey Robin, the other day, something happened, I wonder what was going on with you. Talk, talk to me about what happened. Then you create a bridge for me to actually share my perspective and what was happening with me. It also opens up a world of understanding for you as my leader. And then you might have your own personal aha moments because we can’t know everything that’s going on in our team, and in everyone’s personal lives. And what’s happening between, you know, peers or with peers and clients. So getting really curious, great bridge rather than going, I’m going to use this thing that I’ve been taught because this gives me structure and it’s been proven over and over again. And yet we may find that because of those structures, it, it just closes people down, pure curiosity.
Hilary Blair:
It’s there are so many great tools out there. And how do we be aware of how we’re responding to them? So if we have that idea of, we have that structure, we come to the meeting, we’re connecting, we’re bonding. And then we drop the feedback, right at the end. We’re bridging, bridging, bridging, we’re connecting, we’re having a dialogue. And then we get nervous without even realizing it, like the Drawbridge book pulls up drought or drops it off Drawbridge, boom. And now it’s a wall. And, I want to make sure that we embrace the tools. It’s how we’re using the tools. And are we using them effectively to stay in dialogue, if not, as comfortable with the different feedback models or we’ve been told them as tips and tricks and not as- which tool is best for Jenn? So Jan, I have three different possibilities. The first thing I need to know is that Jenn is really invested, really cares. Then probably what I need to do first is I need to get her talking about the project. So that idea of getting her talking about it. Not talking about, Hey, how was your weekend, right? Not that kind of conversation, but a conversation about what we want to explore feedback around.
Hey, so last week, tell me about your experience with the project. How did it go with the team? How do you feel the process flowed? What was your role in it? Then I’m opening Jenn up to share. If I come in and there are some other models that may suggest- I’m trying to think there are different alphabets for them, right? Different methods. I don’t, I don’t want to call out one in particular. There’s so many different ones, but that idea, this is a reaction I had. This is how I responded to something what’s yours. I can already set Jenn up for a wall because she hasn’t been invited into the conversation. Someone else might feel like, okay, great, thank you. I needed to know that before. So I know where you’re coming from.
Jenn may want to be heard first before you hear where I’m coming from first. And so recognizing that the person on the other side of the feed-forward, and then if we’re talking about a team, that’s a different thing, right? If we’re going to that perfect world where you’re going to be giving feedback to your whole team at the same time, there’s a different energy explored. I think we have to be aware that the wall is not only on the person receiving the feedback, that it’s also on the giver and that you can so like communicate, communicate, and then wall, and then lob your feedback over the wall and drop it in the other person’s lap. So being aware that even if you started having- Hey, we totally, We did. We got connected. I connected with Jenn. I touched base. I see how she was going on. And then she didn’t take the feedback.
Well, probably because you didn’t stay in dialogue, the bridge didn’t remain. And I have that little image coming and I’ve seen it happen. It was like, Hey, it’s good to see you. Good to see you wall when I like lob it over to her. And Jenn’s like, it just happened. I’m actually proud of The power of what works. Right? So bridging also is the power of what is working. We, so it’s hard to see what’s working. We tend to be really excellent at figuring out what’s wrong. And that as Robin mentioned, the brain goes to, what’s not working. And the analogy we use is if you’re at a concert- I don’t know if you remember that- we used to go to concerts. And if you’re at a concert and the lighting is excellent, you don’t think this lighting is excellent. You think, wow, the music, the whole show is wonderful. If one spotlight is off, if one lighting cue goes awry, like we are quick to notice the things going wrong, we need to practice noticing what’s working.
Jenn DeWall:
I love the bridge concept, especially as myself, again, as someone that, and when I joke about my crying and stuff, this was much more in my twenties. Now I feel like I have a different approach towards it, but I like even the power that, that gives me as like, how can I keep the bridge going in this? Because I want to work with that person giving me feedback. I want to have a great relationship with them. And there’s an accountability that it’s also up to me to keep that bridge, to like, to put the bridge down. I, if I’m putting walls up, I’m not doing anything and it’s not just their fault for how they’re packaging it. That there’s some responsibility for how I want to show up. I love that.
Get Curious Instead of Getting Defensive
Dr. Robin Miller:
Yeah. you are empowered as a receiver to be able to get, get curious, rather than to get this constant dialogue that we’re inviting to get curious around what you’re hearing, to have someone clarify words that they’re using or perspective that they have. And I can’t imagine any leader or boss that wouldn’t want to invite a dialogue around my questions around something, right? And I want to normalize something. We are beings that have emotion. And I’ve heard many leaders say, I don’t know what to do when I’m in my office. And I’m giving feedback back when we were all in our offices, I’m getting feedback and this person starts crying. You know, it’s, it’s two-way. Again, if we’re someone that we hold our breath, as we’re receiving information, it will lead us to tears. And for leaders to know that all we have to do is invite people to breathe. And once you start breathing again, the tears dissipate. So they feel as comfortable with that. As we feel with someone getting upset, anxious, angry, when we’re delivering difficult information, for some reason, it’s easier for us to deal with that as leaders than it is to deal with the, Oh my goodness, what do I do when someone starts tearing up, you invite them to breathe.
Jenn DeWall:
I love that. Yeah. That’s I mean, that’s a great reminder too. Like, Oh, I’m emotionally flooded. I’m not there. I need to breathe. Like, that moves us I think perfectly into, you know, our next question, which is what prevents us from receiving feedback. What prevents us from doing that? Like, I know the breathing is there. If I’m so emotionally like disheveled, which sometimes I am, I’m not listening. Like, cause I’m just, or I have a tendency personally to go into shame spirals, right? Like, I can’t believe you did that. Like, can’t believe you did that. Jenn. You’re such an idiot, right? By beat the crap out of myself before the leader even says anything to me, I’m like, I’m already down that road. And then I can’t even hear the accolades that they might be giving me because I’m so far down the shame spiral. But I’m curious, like what other things do you notice? Yeah, Robin-
Dr. Robin Miller:
Is it something that connected to what we were talking about earlier? And I was working it through in my brain, as you all were talking, how do you find the perfect fit for your team and how does that team fit into your corporate culture or your nonprofit culture? How, how do, how do all those individuals fit together? Because when you say, how do we receive feedback? I know that in the past I have received feedback because I’m a very strong woman. That’s why I’m an executive coach. I’m a strong woman. I have opinions. And Hilary is like, yes. And I was in an environment in my past where feedback was used to keep people in their place to keep people sculpted to the specific culture. Then my brain has those stories stored, you know, in my limbic system and neocortex. So that now that I’ve moved to another company, maybe totally different culture, but now it’s still the same thing.
Dr. Robin Miller:
Someone wants to give me some feedback. My brain goes to that place in the past- that’s the neuroscience. And it starts connecting all of that energy to this moment. So we have to be aware of where have people been, what has been their experience? Do we ever take time to ask our teams that the thing, your experience in the past with how you’ve received feedback, how would you like to receive it? Like ask them how they’d like to receive it. You go that we start getting a sense of the individuality. The past story doesn’t have to be our present story. We get to rewrite it. And it also helps me as an individual let go of that paradigm and go, huh? Maybe I can breathe into this feedback. Maybe I can accept that as something that’s really positive and good. It gave me permission as a listener to look at again.
Jenn DeWall:
And I think this is even more powerful recognizing that feedback that was set at one company doesn’t necessarily have to be true at that, you know, next company. And that there could have been things given. Like I think of a company that I worked for that even used to give people feedback on how they dressed, their weight. Yes. I know these are all things you’re not supposed to give feedback on, but they did, and you know, then you can easily go into the next job and be like, do I look the part, do I look this? Or, you know, we have that emotional baggage that comes sometimes from job to job when it comes to feedback. But I love that you gave the power back. Like, just because I had that feedback once does not mean I need to anticipate or armor up or wall up waiting for that feedback to come. And is this feedback in the past, even relevant to where I am today, those are powerful things to think about as a feedback recipient. I love that. I hope someone else is feeling like, yes, I can let go of that garbage feedback because it’s not relevant anymore. That’s just so powerful.
Create Space for the Giver of Feedback
Hilary Blair:
Hey, with the receiving of it, I was thinking some feedback that someone gave me is making sure that I was creating space for the giver of the feedback. And I was like, what? Because I am so in my mind of trying to like, what did I do? How did I do wrong? How can I fix it? Okay. Yes. Yes, I’ll be better. I’ll be able, I’ll be better. And they were saying, there’s no room for me to give you some thoughts and have that dialogue. And I was like, wow. And that was from the performance world. Right. So it’s like, okay. I was so quick to let them know I was receiving it and I would switch it as fast as I could. And this is from being in the recording booth, right. I’m a voiceover actor. And I like, yeah, I got, I got it.
Hilary Blair:
So what happened was the producers would give me less feedback because I didn’t give them space for us to have that dialogue and move things forward. They got worried about me. So my attempt to appear like I was really taking and I was going to fix it, put up a wall, a different kind of wall versus that bridge. And recently I’ve been really working on the language around, yes. I want to take feedback. It matters to me. I want to be doing a better job. But if I beat myself up, who wants to give me feedback, right? That’s not constructive. And how do I instead go, huh? I’m going to find the treasure in it. What’s the treasure in the feedback, regardless of how it’s being given, how can I find the treasure versus beating myself up and then I can move it forward. And it’s definitely easier for the people around me. I think from what I’ve heard, it’s easier with that language. It’s like, ah, what’s the treasure in this versus I won’t do it again.
Jenn DeWall:
What’s the treasure in this. I love that giving you an opportunity to again, feed-forward or just look at the value. Like there are pieces of feedback that I even, I may not agree with how it was spoken, but when I sit back and reflect on it, I can agree with the sentiment, you know, and there’s, there’s a lot of value in feedback. And then sometimes there’s feedback where, you know, we have to just discard, you know, like there’s sometimes feedback that is just not relevant. And you know, I’m sure you guys get it too. Anytime you’re in a public-facing position, you’re going to get all the feedback from people. And some of it’s going to be super helpful. And some of it may not even be kind or relevant.
Hilary Blair:
And that can be the treasure. The treasure can be, you know what? I’m aware that, that doesn’t fit this situation and seeing it that way also acknowledges the person who sent the feedback that is not helpful or coming in the manner that was able to be heard, too. So it’s like, what’s the treasure and it tends to open an energy. And it’s connected to that idea of being vulnerable and available. Available allows me to set the boundaries for being present with it.
Availability Vs. Vulnerability
Jenn DeWall:
Yeah, what’s the concept of availability versus vulnerability for someone that may not be aware of that expression.
Hilary Blair:
Vulnerable from the theater world and the performance world is a super important place to be, to be connected to the character, the other people on stage or in a film or musically, there’s an openness that we flow through. And that when we take that to the corporate or business world, the boundaries within a performance create a safer container for that vulnerability. And I think in that movement, out into the business world, we’ve missed that, that vulnerability is really about me exploring me and being vulnerable to myself. Like you saying that going into that shame place, right? So you looking at what you’re doing, it’s not for you to be vulnerable to me and let, I don’t have to know that. You’re looking at yourself and how can you be vulnerable with yourself and go, wow, look at that. How am I receiving this feedback? How can I move out of that shame spiral Brene Brown, the sociologist is really helped us use that word, bring that word into our vocabulary.
You can- words are worlds- As Robin said- words are worlds. So we respond differently to words. So vulnerable may work for you perfectly. So use that. We have been introducing the term available because it tends to have inability for me to set boundaries around it and to allow me to remain in relationship, as you can see, Robin and I are often about how do we stay with the bridge in relationship in action with each other- vulnerable can be a lot about the person, not necessarily about the relationship. My vulnerability is, what am I sharing about me, me versus available. I’m going to have this much available. This is what I’m choosing in a world that’s demanding, that professional means we’re sharing a lot more. Being able to have boundaries is ironically super important. It’s like, okay. Yeah. So you, those two words, take it or leave it. We generally say that vulnerable has a sense of being about self and available has to do about the relationship, which is important.
Jenn DeWall:
I love that we don’t have to drop everything. We can intentionally choose. What’s going to be appropriate. And I think that also brings us as, you know, being relevant and having more honest conversations on the topic instead of going on tangents. Like we don’t need to go down another rabbit hole by just dumping everything that we’re feeling. We can be intentionally available. But what’s specific in the situation, I love that. Just like giving a little bit more structure around that. So how can we show up? So I know you guys have many too, like I’m not going to call them tips and tricks. I’m not calling them tips and tricks, but just ways that people can receive feedback. How can we show up as a feedback receiver that can align with that executive presence or the person that we want to be? You had a few different techniques or strategies. Maybe I’ll kick it over to Robin. What are some ways that we can show up as a receiver?
Chew the Hay, But Spit Out the Sticks
Dr. Robin Miller:
I think the first and primary thing that brings us into this world and takes us out of this world and keeps us connected to ourselves and to others is when we are receiving feedback or we get, we’re getting ready to walk into a space or to a Zoom meeting. And we know something’s going to happen. We need to stay connected to our breath. Our breath is essential and we often hold it and cut it off, which has our thoughts leave us. We start the monkey-mind people call it the amygdala, hijack, the cortisol spikes. Our breath keeps us, keeps us calm. And that mindset of I can get something out of this conversation, whether I agree with it or not, there is something here. I once learned from someone that you, chew the hay and you spit out the sticks.
If you can learn, as an Oklahoma girl- if you can learn, I’m going into this meeting and there’s going to be some hay and there’s probably going to be some sticks and I get to be intentional about what I receive and what I go. That was great. Thank you. And be done with it. Okay. And move forward. Yeah. But staying connected to your breath and getting really curious. Curiosity with questions that are, open-ended not yes or no, but open-ended not for the sake of having someone prove to you why they’re giving you this feedback, but curiosity and openness so that you can figure out where can this go? What does this need to be? How is this going to benefit the whole? Not only me, but the team, the client, the company? And use that mindset has as you approach it. Now I’m speaking as I am the worst person in the world receiving feedback. Okay. And I also am able to coach people because of that. Hey, let’s try this because I understand what you’re going through. I deal with it every day of my life. What am I going to chew and keep, what am I going to let go of?
Jenn DeWall:
I love that.
Be Aware of Your Breath (And Your Lips!)
Hilary Blair:
I’m going to give you two tricks. Is it okay to give you a trick? Add onto what Robin’s saying. One is to keep your lips slightly parted so that you are receiving without your lips pursed, wait, it’s amazing. How often we start to receive feedback like this [puckers lips tightly]. Yeah. And we’re ready to kind of respond. Keeping our lips slightly parted is super helpful to remain in relationship. The other one is to find a word that lets us, we, we speak on the exhale. So find a word that lets us exhale and get back on our breath. One of the misunderstandings is that we inhale. What we want to do is exhale. Huh? Tell me more or something. Can you tell me more? Let me understand what that word means. A phrase or a word that allows you to exhale, to get back on your normal cadence of breath. When you’re holding your breath. We want to exhale, not inhale. Huh [exhale] More on that. And if you space out, which so happens, if you want to inhale through your nose, it’s an interesting feature. It’s a stage feature. But if Jenn you’re giving me feedback and my mind leaves completely because of one thing you said, and now I have no idea what you’re talking about. If I inhale through my nose, which we don’t tend to do when we’re speaking, we inhale through our mouth. It can bring me right back to the moment. And it’s totally a stage thing where you’ve lost focus. And you’re like, no, I’m not telling you to sniff someone. It’s one of our senses that we don’t use very much. And so it brings us right back to the moment. So lips, slightly parted, being aware that the exhale is important, and that to get back with someone, not the, not the cortisol heightened thing, but that like, if I’ve gone off to inhale through the nose to focus again, which brings us, those are tools. I was joking about tips and tricks- tools for what Robin was saying about remaining in that relationship.
Jenn DeWall:
I love that. And even having that word, I almost want to call it a processing word because that’s how it sounds for me is just like, huh? And then exhaling and giving yourself a beat to at least reflect on that, you know, again, reminding yourself, how do I want to respond to this feedback? Or what’s the treasure? Because you did give so many valuable insights. I love the process. The process pause. Huh. Exhale.
Jenn DeWall:
That’s what we can coin it as, yes, that’s powerful because then we’re not also responding. Our first word is, well, that wasn’t right. Like that’s not me or whatever the defensive words might be. And I think the ha is again, that curiosity word they get for it. So that’s why I really like that a lot. And the other things that they said, you know, throughout this podcast, I just want to reiterate like setting boundaries as a receiver, taking back your power, reminding yourself, is this a good time? And if not, when would be? I mean, that one, I think I just want to, that could have saved me. Where were you guys? 10 years ago, early on in my career, 15 years ago. I could’ve really benefited from that.
Dr. Robin Miller:
And you know, you, you brought up earlier, how do I use this with my boss and my manager and my leader at my board? It can be a lot of different things. And it’s the way that we, we enter into it. You know, if I say to you, Jenn, I really want to hear what you have to say and I need 30 minutes. Can we have that? Or I need to hear this tomorrow. Can we have that? So that you’re setting it up. You appreciate it. You’re open to it. You’re going to be available. And I need the space for it to happen
Jenn DeWall:
Because I, I love just thinking about putting it as later, because even if I go back to some jobs I’ve had, like, I might’ve done a really big meeting or project, whatever you want to say, but then I’m done with it. I have a half-hour and then I’m onto the next thing. And so if I really want to hear it, I can’t just take it in that half-hour because I’m already trying to think about what’s my next meeting gonna look like, what do I have to do before then? And so I’m not hearing it anyways or I’m half hearing it. And then chances are, I’m probably not hearing it in the appropriate way. That’s going to think about the bridge. Definitely not doing that. I think might be trying to either get it through. I might become more defensive because I’m just trying to get out of the feedback situation. So I love that point. Can you guys tell me how fun I was probably to give feedback to?
Acknowledge That Life Before is Not Life Now
Dr. Robin Miller:
I want to also mention, But 15 years ago the culture was different. And to honor the habits we create were part of the time in which they were created. So we create habits to succeed, not sabotage ourselves. So honor yourself that at the time that might’ve been what worked then. It’s a different world now. And before, I don’t know if we were able to have a two-way conversation.
Jenn DeWall:
Yeah. And recommend recognizing that emotions exist. I just love this revolution. And the fact that we’re finally acknowledging that people can’t halfway walk into work without a part of themselves like emotions. Hilary and Robin, how do people get in touch with you? How can they work with the team at ARTiculate? Like how can they, you know, maybe use this to improve their own presence as a team? Maybe even hire you guys to talk about how they can start to receive team feedback, which again is one of my favorite things. And like, how could we create a team feedback culture, but how do people get in touch with you?
How to Connect with Hillary and Robin
Dr. Robin Miller:
That they put it up on that you can see, we love to talk to people in this COVID environment, you’re over zoom or email, please call us and we’ll reach back. We can create a meeting (303) 868-3889. We would love to either coach you, your groups, or one-on-one we do both. And we also facilitate, so if you have teams that need to have some communication and you want to learn some new as we’re calling- it tips and tricks, discipline and techniques and learn new ways of being, as I say as again, yeah, we would love to support you in that.
Hilary Blair:
Definitely and link with us, we have our website, we have a newsletter, LinkedIn. Call us though. Robin loves to have the conversation. She’s really excellent at that discovery call for an individual or for teams to figure out what is needed, what would be helpful. So she’s wonderful to talk to about that and go on that journey.
Jenn DeWall:
Well, from my personal experience, I think what you provide is invaluable. Again, if I could have had someone because I do think part, part of my failures in my career was the inability to receive feedback and see it in a way that preserves the type of leader that I want to be seen as, the type of leader I want to show up as. And so I think the work that you’re doing is so valuable. You know, I, I especially see it around this topic just because I do think that how I received feedback really created in my first career. Like it, it created a lot of my bad moments, my perceived failures, and granted I’m very happy for those, but I wonder what my life would have looked like. Actually, if I had just been a better feedback receiver and you know, I think that’s so important. Dr. Robin Miller, Hilary Blair, thank you so much for giving us your time, your expertise. We really greatly appreciate it. And I hope that you guys connect with the team. You’re going to hear more on our bumper on how you can get in contact, but thank you so much. We really appreciate it. And I hope you have a fabulous day!
Dr. Robin Miller:
Thank you, Jenn. You rock. Thank you.
Jenn DeWall:
I hope you enjoy today’s podcast episode with Hilary Blair and Dr. Robin Miller. I know that I did, and I found a lot of new valuable insights for how I can look at the feedback and I love taking back the power. If you want to connect with them, you can give them a call for a consult, see how they can help your organization develop a better presence within your leaders, as well as communication. You can find them at articulaterc.com. In addition, if you want to find out more about Crestcom, head on over to crestcom.com, we would love to talk about how we can develop your leaders or even offer a free leadership skills workshop. And last, if you enjoyed today’s podcast episode, don’t forget to share this with your friends and leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service.
